Comments on: Bathing Suit Areas and Sex-Positivity: A Post In Which I Talk To Your Children, Sort Of http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/ Kumbaya Motherf*cker Central Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:18:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Quote to Remember « Jem’s Lair http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-3308 Quote to Remember « Jem’s Lair Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:09:25 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-3308 [...] Tiger Beatdown in Bathing Suit Areas and Sex-Positivity: A Post In Which I Talk To Your Children, So... [...] [...] Tiger Beatdown in Bathing Suit Areas and Sex-Positivity: A Post In Which I Talk To Your Children, So… [...]

]]> By: Farore http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1859 Farore Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:28:39 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1859 I would just like to add to the discussion, not as a parent but as a child of parents who were progressive but very unsure as to how and when to approach this talk: be very careful to read/thoroughly check over any books or diagrams you give to or show your children before you do so. When I was six and my younger sister was born, my parents gave me a book called (I think) "So You Have A Baby Sister or Brother: Where Do Babies Come From?" The part that stands out most vividly in my memory is the page that said "When a man and a woman love each other very much, they lie down naked together, and then nine months later the woman has a baby" (or something to that effect) and had an illustration of a man and a woman lying down naked on a neatly-made bed about two feet away from each other, with the man resting his hand on the woman's hip.<br /><br />Not The Most Educational Thing I've Ever Seen, let me tell you what. I would just like to add to the discussion, not as a parent but as a child of parents who were progressive but very unsure as to how and when to approach this talk: be very careful to read/thoroughly check over any books or diagrams you give to or show your children before you do so. When I was six and my younger sister was born, my parents gave me a book called (I think) "So You Have A Baby Sister or Brother: Where Do Babies Come From?" The part that stands out most vividly in my memory is the page that said "When a man and a woman love each other very much, they lie down naked together, and then nine months later the woman has a baby" (or something to that effect) and had an illustration of a man and a woman lying down naked on a neatly-made bed about two feet away from each other, with the man resting his hand on the woman's hip.

Not The Most Educational Thing I've Ever Seen, let me tell you what.

]]> By: whatsername http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1549 whatsername Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:16:14 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1549 I couldn't disagree more with Kel D on the pleasure aspect. I think that's a vital component to any discussion about sexuality. I think the horror that 12 year old girls feel about potentially putting a penis in their mouth revolves directly around the shame they already know is integral to sex. Hell, I understood that by 8 or 9. Addressing this early and teaching that sex is about pleasure and that certain kinds of sex are also sometimes about procreation is the only way I can think of to go about this healthily. In my view, centering pleasure will also teach them that if they're doing something that IS NOT PLEASURABLE that's not how it's supposed to be, leaving them less easily manipulated by assholes down the line.<br /><br />I do worry about talking about this as something that grown ups do, because I know kids will very un-self-consciously touch their genitals and realize it feels good and thus keep doing it. If they're told feeling pleasure by doing so is a "grown up" thing, I worry that they might feel guilt for doing it, or that because they do it (or have done it) that they should hide it or be ashamed of it. I couldn't disagree more with Kel D on the pleasure aspect. I think that's a vital component to any discussion about sexuality. I think the horror that 12 year old girls feel about potentially putting a penis in their mouth revolves directly around the shame they already know is integral to sex. Hell, I understood that by 8 or 9. Addressing this early and teaching that sex is about pleasure and that certain kinds of sex are also sometimes about procreation is the only way I can think of to go about this healthily. In my view, centering pleasure will also teach them that if they're doing something that IS NOT PLEASURABLE that's not how it's supposed to be, leaving them less easily manipulated by assholes down the line.

I do worry about talking about this as something that grown ups do, because I know kids will very un-self-consciously touch their genitals and realize it feels good and thus keep doing it. If they're told feeling pleasure by doing so is a "grown up" thing, I worry that they might feel guilt for doing it, or that because they do it (or have done it) that they should hide it or be ashamed of it.

]]> By: Anonymous http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1548 Anonymous Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:03:02 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1548 I think my personal sex-ed growing up was almost matching my personal ideal of what it should be. I think proper terminology and the basics of "where do babies come from?" (inevitable question) are great things to learn at a young age, as well as not fostering a hostile-toward-masturbation environment. It's private, it's fine, nothing to be ashamed about, almost everybody does it to varying degrees, etc. I also agree that the dialogue should change as children and the questions become more mature/etc. I do wish I'd had a bit of talk on taking charge of my own sexual pleasure and whatnot, we learned what and where the clitoris is in my public school sex ed just like we learned what the glans of the penis is, but nobody ever really told me how girls masturbate. Don't know if I did it is a kid but when I discovered it around puberty I thought I was the weirdest, strangest kid ever. And I know my story is rather common. I have friends who were given vibrators by parents and discussions on your own pleasure, the safest way to have sex, etc. I think this is a great route to go, so that fewer people grow up thinking masturbation is dirty or wrong; so that fewer girls grow up like me in that they know that masturbation is a guy touching his penis until he orgasms and that a female is supposed to... what, buy a dildo? I think my personal sex-ed growing up was almost matching my personal ideal of what it should be. I think proper terminology and the basics of "where do babies come from?" (inevitable question) are great things to learn at a young age, as well as not fostering a hostile-toward-masturbation environment. It's private, it's fine, nothing to be ashamed about, almost everybody does it to varying degrees, etc. I also agree that the dialogue should change as children and the questions become more mature/etc. I do wish I'd had a bit of talk on taking charge of my own sexual pleasure and whatnot, we learned what and where the clitoris is in my public school sex ed just like we learned what the glans of the penis is, but nobody ever really told me how girls masturbate. Don't know if I did it is a kid but when I discovered it around puberty I thought I was the weirdest, strangest kid ever. And I know my story is rather common. I have friends who were given vibrators by parents and discussions on your own pleasure, the safest way to have sex, etc. I think this is a great route to go, so that fewer people grow up thinking masturbation is dirty or wrong; so that fewer girls grow up like me in that they know that masturbation is a guy touching his penis until he orgasms and that a female is supposed to… what, buy a dildo?

]]> By: ChelseaWantsOut http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1545 ChelseaWantsOut Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:33:25 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1545 @Rachel: I think the biggest reason kids are susceptible to being "convinced" that they want what's happening is because they aren't taught what consent is, compounded by the fact that they are told both explicitly and implicitly that people in positions of authority are to be trusted and obeyed. Even many parents who tell their children in words never to let someone touch their swimsuit areas also make their children obey many, often arbitrary, rules. How can we expect consent to mean anything to children when we routinely use force and coercion to make them do exactly what we want them to do exactly when we want them to do it?<br /><br />Here is a website about consensual living, which I think is awesome: http://www.consensual-living.com (warning, site has muzac that starts playing automatically) @Rachel: I think the biggest reason kids are susceptible to being "convinced" that they want what's happening is because they aren't taught what consent is, compounded by the fact that they are told both explicitly and implicitly that people in positions of authority are to be trusted and obeyed. Even many parents who tell their children in words never to let someone touch their swimsuit areas also make their children obey many, often arbitrary, rules. How can we expect consent to mean anything to children when we routinely use force and coercion to make them do exactly what we want them to do exactly when we want them to do it?

Here is a website about consensual living, which I think is awesome: http://www.consensual-living.com (warning, site has muzac that starts playing automatically)

]]> By: Rachel B. http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1544 Rachel B. Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:19:15 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1544 PS: In the last paragraph of wildly parenthetical's first comment, it's said in the way I wish I'd said it. PS: In the last paragraph of wildly parenthetical's first comment, it's said in the way I wish I'd said it.

]]> By: Rachel B. http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1543 Rachel B. Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:17:39 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1543 Hi Sady!<br /><br />It's great you're broaching this -- I too am pre-kids (way, way, pre-kids) and have wondered how one might have that discussion in a sex-positive, feminist way. Lord knows my parents stuck to the "pray they find out on their own" version of it.<br /><br />I'd like to comment on what Sniff said about downplaying the "and they will be punished" bit. A new friend of mine recently posted about her experience with sexual assault, and part of her story was that the first time she told her mom what her stepdad was doing, her mom said "be sure you're telling me the truth, because if this is the truth, he will go to jail," which meant that my friend recanted and the abuse went on for another decade.<br /><br />I also am a bit worried about discussing consent with wee ones -- because don't abusing adults frequently tell the children they are abusing that the kid wants what is happening to them? <br /><br />I (not having kids and therefore not sure about this) think maybe that part of the convo should be simplified to "these parts of your body are private, other people shouldn't touch them until you are a grown-up and want other people to touch them, please come tell me if anyone ever touches you there". <br /><br />This is still not specific enough, of course, but five and six year olds might not be able to handle much more specificity.<br /><br />I look forward to reading more of your posts on this topic this week, and the comments that result! Hi Sady!

It's great you're broaching this — I too am pre-kids (way, way, pre-kids) and have wondered how one might have that discussion in a sex-positive, feminist way. Lord knows my parents stuck to the "pray they find out on their own" version of it.

I'd like to comment on what Sniff said about downplaying the "and they will be punished" bit. A new friend of mine recently posted about her experience with sexual assault, and part of her story was that the first time she told her mom what her stepdad was doing, her mom said "be sure you're telling me the truth, because if this is the truth, he will go to jail," which meant that my friend recanted and the abuse went on for another decade.

I also am a bit worried about discussing consent with wee ones — because don't abusing adults frequently tell the children they are abusing that the kid wants what is happening to them?

I (not having kids and therefore not sure about this) think maybe that part of the convo should be simplified to "these parts of your body are private, other people shouldn't touch them until you are a grown-up and want other people to touch them, please come tell me if anyone ever touches you there".

This is still not specific enough, of course, but five and six year olds might not be able to handle much more specificity.

I look forward to reading more of your posts on this topic this week, and the comments that result!

]]> By: ChelseaWantsOut http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1542 ChelseaWantsOut Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:54:42 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1542 I want to chime in to agree with everyone who's saying that kids masturbate. The first time I ever felt sexually aroused was when I saw Dances with Wolves in the theater when I was six, but I was touching myself (or, more accurately, rubbing myself on things--couch cushions, my bed, etc.) before that. I masturbated frequently as a child, and my mom had a nice talk with me about how that was something I should do in my room with the door closed. As someone who's spent years working in day care, I can confidently say that my experience was common.<br /><br />I also don't think it's a problem for children to engage in consensual sex-play together. I think the problem comes when there's an age/power disparity or just coersion involved. For instance, "I won't give you a cookie/stop pinching you unless you kiss me/let me look up your skirt," not okay. "Do you want to take off our pants and look at each other's privates?" probably okay, if the other person says yes and they're roughly the same age. I want to chime in to agree with everyone who's saying that kids masturbate. The first time I ever felt sexually aroused was when I saw Dances with Wolves in the theater when I was six, but I was touching myself (or, more accurately, rubbing myself on things–couch cushions, my bed, etc.) before that. I masturbated frequently as a child, and my mom had a nice talk with me about how that was something I should do in my room with the door closed. As someone who's spent years working in day care, I can confidently say that my experience was common.

I also don't think it's a problem for children to engage in consensual sex-play together. I think the problem comes when there's an age/power disparity or just coersion involved. For instance, "I won't give you a cookie/stop pinching you unless you kiss me/let me look up your skirt," not okay. "Do you want to take off our pants and look at each other's privates?" probably okay, if the other person says yes and they're roughly the same age.

]]> By: berryblade http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1540 berryblade Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:57:46 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1540 You're a bloody genius - that's the only thing I can really think of that's really worth saying ;) You're a bloody genius – that's the only thing I can really think of that's really worth saying ;)

]]> By: Jessica http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/06/30/bathing-suit-areas-and-sex-positivity-a-post-in-which-i-talk-to-your-children-sort-of/comment-page-1/#comment-1539 Jessica Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:57:28 +0000 http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=334#comment-1539 I've recently figured out that my own dear mother was way ahead of her time. When she was pregnant with my brother, I was 6 and my sister 4. She sat down and read us Peter Mayle's Where Did I come From? and Cole's How You Were Born.<br /><br />The first book explains ALL the biomechanics of sex (orgasm is like a really big sneeze, only better!) with pictures and a bit on how the fetus grows into a baby, the second explains nothing about sex, but is more detailed on how the fetus grows and how it gets OUT of mommy.<br /><br />The stuff that was too much for me, I just didn't absorb. The books were on my bookshelf anytime I wanted to go back and read them. I was absolutely not traumatized since my mother wasn't upset and embarassed. And thus began 'the talk' that has so far lasted 20 years in my family. I plan to do the same thing with my kids, since it meant that when I had questions, I always knew that Mom knew the answer and wouldn't be upset that I asked her. I've recently figured out that my own dear mother was way ahead of her time. When she was pregnant with my brother, I was 6 and my sister 4. She sat down and read us Peter Mayle's Where Did I come From? and Cole's How You Were Born.

The first book explains ALL the biomechanics of sex (orgasm is like a really big sneeze, only better!) with pictures and a bit on how the fetus grows into a baby, the second explains nothing about sex, but is more detailed on how the fetus grows and how it gets OUT of mommy.

The stuff that was too much for me, I just didn't absorb. The books were on my bookshelf anytime I wanted to go back and read them. I was absolutely not traumatized since my mother wasn't upset and embarassed. And thus began 'the talk' that has so far lasted 20 years in my family. I plan to do the same thing with my kids, since it meant that when I had questions, I always knew that Mom knew the answer and wouldn't be upset that I asked her.

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