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	<title>Comments on: Sexist Beatdown: Tiger and Cheetah Edition</title>
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	<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/</link>
	<description>Kumbaya Motherf*cker Central</description>
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		<title>By: kristyn</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-4099</link>
		<dc:creator>kristyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 23:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-4099</guid>
		<description>Hey Sady, you addressed my concerns beautifully. 

I&#039;m tired, and conflictedly enough, ashamed, of being so scared all the time. I know as a feminist -- and skirts and heterosexuality and the occasional foray into kitten heels and eyeshadow aside, I&#039;m apparently a man-hating-feminist stereotype -- I shouldn&#039;t live in fear, but I do.

Fear of my own body, my own opinions. And I know I&#039;m not the only one. Shit, as females, we can&#039;t talk about things that maybe some of us do that are wrong, like maybe even raping dudes, without facing someone&#039;s ire and it sucks. 

I know that I, personally, this person, should suck it up and be braver, but frankly, even in theoretically safe spaces like feminist blogs on the internet, I&#039;m scared. Scared, essentially, when it boils right down to it, that they&#039;re going to find me, find all of us -- that they&#039;re going to go straight for all of our weaknesses -- and then they are going to kill us. 

There is a famous quote to that effect and I really feel that it is true. Men fear women&#039;s mockery, and women fear men&#039;s violence. Even when we are alone.

I hope this doesn&#039;t sound unhinged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Sady, you addressed my concerns beautifully. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m tired, and conflictedly enough, ashamed, of being so scared all the time. I know as a feminist &#8212; and skirts and heterosexuality and the occasional foray into kitten heels and eyeshadow aside, I&#8217;m apparently a man-hating-feminist stereotype &#8212; I shouldn&#8217;t live in fear, but I do.</p>
<p>Fear of my own body, my own opinions. And I know I&#8217;m not the only one. Shit, as females, we can&#8217;t talk about things that maybe some of us do that are wrong, like maybe even raping dudes, without facing someone&#8217;s ire and it sucks. </p>
<p>I know that I, personally, this person, should suck it up and be braver, but frankly, even in theoretically safe spaces like feminist blogs on the internet, I&#8217;m scared. Scared, essentially, when it boils right down to it, that they&#8217;re going to find me, find all of us &#8212; that they&#8217;re going to go straight for all of our weaknesses &#8212; and then they are going to kill us. </p>
<p>There is a famous quote to that effect and I really feel that it is true. Men fear women&#8217;s mockery, and women fear men&#8217;s violence. Even when we are alone.</p>
<p>I hope this doesn&#8217;t sound unhinged.</p>
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		<title>By: Meeting Halfway &#171; Toy Soldiers</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3755</link>
		<dc:creator>Meeting Halfway &#171; Toy Soldiers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3755</guid>
		<description>[...] goes on to quote from Sady, a blogger from Tiger Beatdown: If we refuse to say things—things that we know to be true—because some MRA or whoever could [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] goes on to quote from Sady, a blogger from Tiger Beatdown: If we refuse to say things—things that we know to be true—because some MRA or whoever could [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Washington City Paper: A feminist&#8217;s attempt at introspection &#124; Misandry Review</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3754</link>
		<dc:creator>Washington City Paper: A feminist&#8217;s attempt at introspection &#124; Misandry Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3754</guid>
		<description>[...] of sexual assaults against men got an interesting response from some feminist commenters over on Sady’s blog, Tiger Beatdown (Yes! This is a special guest edition of Sexist Comments of the Week!) Namely: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of sexual assaults against men got an interesting response from some feminist commenters over on Sady’s blog, Tiger Beatdown (Yes! This is a special guest edition of Sexist Comments of the Week!) Namely: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sexist Comments of the Week: When Feminists and MRAs Agree - The Sexist - Washington City Paper</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3751</link>
		<dc:creator>Sexist Comments of the Week: When Feminists and MRAs Agree - The Sexist - Washington City Paper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3751</guid>
		<description>[...] of sexual assaults against men got an interesting response from some feminist commenters over on Sady&#8217;s blog, Tiger Beatdown (Yes! This is a special guest edition of Sexist Comments of the Week!) Namely: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of sexual assaults against men got an interesting response from some feminist commenters over on Sady&#8217;s blog, Tiger Beatdown (Yes! This is a special guest edition of Sexist Comments of the Week!) Namely: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Taybeh Chaser</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3750</link>
		<dc:creator>Taybeh Chaser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3750</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s been pointed out before many a time, but what MRA&#039;s still don&#039;t seem to realize is that it&#039;s precisely because of the same patriarchal ideas feminists try to challenge (women as weak, men always in control, or should be, and if they aren&#039;t it&#039;s because they aren&#039;t asserting themselves as a &quot;real&quot; man would, etc, ad nauseum) that men in abusive situations cannot easily ecape or name what has happened to them--or, in many cases, even recognize that things like verbal abuse, taking advantage of incapacitated men, and scratching so as to leave scars, are actually damaging, and unacceptable. It&#039;s certainly not because of feminists (who are generally against screwing people who cannot consent and committing unnecessary acts of violence, as far as I am aware) somehow conspiring to keep men down. If feminists discuss abuse of women by men more often, it is because this seems to be the more prevalent type, due to the imbalance of power in male-female relations that persists even in the shiny, happy, supposedly too PC Western world. Also, what Sady and Amanda said about lack of data. If women under-report rapes by men (the culturally expected type--and, too often, tacitly accepted, contributing to said under-reporting), what can we expect with men who have been raped by women, or victims of abuse or rape by members of the same sex? How often do they report, and how often are they taken seriously?

Illustrative anecdata from my own life: In high school, I was not a happy camper and wound up in a therapy group with a boy who had been admitted to a mental hospital for depression and suicidal tendencies. He told about how, at a party shortly before his admittance, he was so drunk he couldn&#039;t move very well or speak coherently, and a girl began performing oral sex on him, which he couldn&#039;t stop. His girlfriend dumped him over the incident, part of the reason he&#039;d landed in the hospital. He called what had happpened rape, so I imagine one of the doctors had given him &quot;permission&quot; to name it in that way. I had a lot of trouble believing him, even though he was sitting there in a psychiatric hospital, in a room full of people telling ugly truths in an effort to get better. If he&#039;d willingly cheated while drunk and felt bad about it, no one would have judged him for saying so. It might even have been easier for him to tell the story that way, make it more believable, say he was depressed because of guilt and being dumped. Though I didn&#039;t say anything, I suspected him of making up a story to cover his own mistake, or at least of enjoying what had happened more than he should have. Because guys always want sex and always have the upper hand. I guess he was lucky the therapists took his word for it.

This is not to be all &quot;the poor, poor men&quot;. As I said above, the reason people take the line I took as a teenager with regard to male victims of female attackers isn&#039;t that men are downtrodden, it&#039;s that they are expected to be invincible and sexually voracious, and dismissed if they &quot;allow&quot; weak women to get the better of them or admit they did not want a sexual encounter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s been pointed out before many a time, but what MRA&#8217;s still don&#8217;t seem to realize is that it&#8217;s precisely because of the same patriarchal ideas feminists try to challenge (women as weak, men always in control, or should be, and if they aren&#8217;t it&#8217;s because they aren&#8217;t asserting themselves as a &#8220;real&#8221; man would, etc, ad nauseum) that men in abusive situations cannot easily ecape or name what has happened to them&#8211;or, in many cases, even recognize that things like verbal abuse, taking advantage of incapacitated men, and scratching so as to leave scars, are actually damaging, and unacceptable. It&#8217;s certainly not because of feminists (who are generally against screwing people who cannot consent and committing unnecessary acts of violence, as far as I am aware) somehow conspiring to keep men down. If feminists discuss abuse of women by men more often, it is because this seems to be the more prevalent type, due to the imbalance of power in male-female relations that persists even in the shiny, happy, supposedly too PC Western world. Also, what Sady and Amanda said about lack of data. If women under-report rapes by men (the culturally expected type&#8211;and, too often, tacitly accepted, contributing to said under-reporting), what can we expect with men who have been raped by women, or victims of abuse or rape by members of the same sex? How often do they report, and how often are they taken seriously?</p>
<p>Illustrative anecdata from my own life: In high school, I was not a happy camper and wound up in a therapy group with a boy who had been admitted to a mental hospital for depression and suicidal tendencies. He told about how, at a party shortly before his admittance, he was so drunk he couldn&#8217;t move very well or speak coherently, and a girl began performing oral sex on him, which he couldn&#8217;t stop. His girlfriend dumped him over the incident, part of the reason he&#8217;d landed in the hospital. He called what had happpened rape, so I imagine one of the doctors had given him &#8220;permission&#8221; to name it in that way. I had a lot of trouble believing him, even though he was sitting there in a psychiatric hospital, in a room full of people telling ugly truths in an effort to get better. If he&#8217;d willingly cheated while drunk and felt bad about it, no one would have judged him for saying so. It might even have been easier for him to tell the story that way, make it more believable, say he was depressed because of guilt and being dumped. Though I didn&#8217;t say anything, I suspected him of making up a story to cover his own mistake, or at least of enjoying what had happened more than he should have. Because guys always want sex and always have the upper hand. I guess he was lucky the therapists took his word for it.</p>
<p>This is not to be all &#8220;the poor, poor men&#8221;. As I said above, the reason people take the line I took as a teenager with regard to male victims of female attackers isn&#8217;t that men are downtrodden, it&#8217;s that they are expected to be invincible and sexually voracious, and dismissed if they &#8220;allow&#8221; weak women to get the better of them or admit they did not want a sexual encounter.</p>
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		<title>By: attack_laurel</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3749</link>
		<dc:creator>attack_laurel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3749</guid>
		<description>It is sad - I knew a couple where the wife regularly verbally abused her husband (his friends called it &quot;nagging&quot;, I call &quot;bullshit&quot;) and used to dig her nails into his arm when she was mad at him to the point of leaving scars (which he would show people like it was cute).  Their interactions made me deeply uncomfortable because if the genders were reversed, there would be no question that it was abuse (scars, omg).

But his friends just called him a &quot;pussy&quot; for putting up with it.  So a man who is abused is not only being abused, but is openly mocked for being weak enough to be abused.  Not because he loves his wife (twisted as that love may be), but because he won&#039;t learn her good by being violent back.  How scary is that?

I once - just once - saw him speak gently and politely to her to ask her not to denigrate him in front of his friends, and she acted like he&#039;d screamed epithets at her.  Maybe that&#039;s a small difference, I don&#039;t know - men escalate when confronted?  But that isn&#039;t right either.

The other thing is that men frequently just won&#039;t say anything to women who casually abuse them (I&#039;m thinking here of a friend who had a female &quot;friend&quot; who used to hit him on the back of the head very hard when she was annoyed at him).  It&#039;s so enculturated that men can&#039;t be hurt by women that the men involved don&#039;t believe it&#039;s abuse.

MRAs are a special little group all their own with only the most tenuous grasp on reality, so I can&#039;t really count their opinions as worthwhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is sad &#8211; I knew a couple where the wife regularly verbally abused her husband (his friends called it &#8220;nagging&#8221;, I call &#8220;bullshit&#8221;) and used to dig her nails into his arm when she was mad at him to the point of leaving scars (which he would show people like it was cute).  Their interactions made me deeply uncomfortable because if the genders were reversed, there would be no question that it was abuse (scars, omg).</p>
<p>But his friends just called him a &#8220;pussy&#8221; for putting up with it.  So a man who is abused is not only being abused, but is openly mocked for being weak enough to be abused.  Not because he loves his wife (twisted as that love may be), but because he won&#8217;t learn her good by being violent back.  How scary is that?</p>
<p>I once &#8211; just once &#8211; saw him speak gently and politely to her to ask her not to denigrate him in front of his friends, and she acted like he&#8217;d screamed epithets at her.  Maybe that&#8217;s a small difference, I don&#8217;t know &#8211; men escalate when confronted?  But that isn&#8217;t right either.</p>
<p>The other thing is that men frequently just won&#8217;t say anything to women who casually abuse them (I&#8217;m thinking here of a friend who had a female &#8220;friend&#8221; who used to hit him on the back of the head very hard when she was annoyed at him).  It&#8217;s so enculturated that men can&#8217;t be hurt by women that the men involved don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s abuse.</p>
<p>MRAs are a special little group all their own with only the most tenuous grasp on reality, so I can&#8217;t really count their opinions as worthwhile.</p>
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		<title>By: Interesting posts, weekend of 12/6/09 &#171; Feminists with Female Sexual Dysfunction</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3738</link>
		<dc:creator>Interesting posts, weekend of 12/6/09 &#171; Feminists with Female Sexual Dysfunction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3738</guid>
		<description>[...] Women&#8217;s Reactions to Men Who Are Terrified of Cougars, Pumas, and Now, Evidently, Cheetahs, Sexist Beatdown: Tiger and Cheetah Edition, No woman anywhere should ever be good enough, and probably my favorite blog post of all on this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Women&#8217;s Reactions to Men Who Are Terrified of Cougars, Pumas, and Now, Evidently, Cheetahs, Sexist Beatdown: Tiger and Cheetah Edition, No woman anywhere should ever be good enough, and probably my favorite blog post of all on this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3730</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3730</guid>
		<description>Further to what Kristyn said-
Yes, and the legal system is going to take this meme and run with it re. proving any allegation of rape.
&quot;M&#039;lud. I put it to you that not only did Ms Z totally ask for whatever was coming to her by getting in a car with the defendant, but that she was &lt;i&gt;planning to rape him&lt;/i&gt;.
Happy days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to what Kristyn said-<br />
Yes, and the legal system is going to take this meme and run with it re. proving any allegation of rape.<br />
&#8220;M&#8217;lud. I put it to you that not only did Ms Z totally ask for whatever was coming to her by getting in a car with the defendant, but that she was <i>planning to rape him</i>.<br />
Happy days.</p>
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		<title>By: Sady</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3728</link>
		<dc:creator>Sady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 05:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3728</guid>
		<description>@Erin: It&#039;s not my cat, thank God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Erin: It&#8217;s not my cat, thank God.</p>
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		<title>By: Sady</title>
		<link>http://tigerbeatdown.com/2009/12/04/sexist-beatdown-tiger-and-cheetah-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-3727</link>
		<dc:creator>Sady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 05:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=616#comment-3727</guid>
		<description>@kristyn: Well, that&#039;s the thing. If we refuse to say things - things that we know to be true - because some MRA or whoever could take them and twist them into untruth, then we&#039;re letting the opposition determine the terms of the debate for us. A particularly fringey and known-to-be-nuts variety of the opposition, at that. This is actually something that drives me a wee bit up the wall, about feminist conversations: sometimes I&#039;m afraid we oversimplify certain principles, or refuse to say certain things, because the actual complexities or truths at hand don&#039;t feel &quot;safe&quot; or in line with our predetermined talking points and agreed-upon theories. Whereas it&#039;s precisely those complexities and uncomfortable truths we should be focusing on, really, because that&#039;s where we need to improve our understandings. We need to go out beyond the edges of what we already understand and feel comfortable with, in order to find anything new to say. It seems like every time I write about some not-so-admirable thing that ladies do, someone weighs in to say that I&#039;m not presenting the gender positively enough and/or giving aid to the enemy. And I don&#039;t shitting care about that, to be totally blunt. For one, I don&#039;t think The Enemy reads Tiger Beatdown, and for two, I care about writing the truth, because I don&#039;t feel feminism is served or ever can be served by ignoring the truth and instead telling each other whatever is most uplifting or whatever we most want to hear. Writing this chat felt really vulnerable, for me, which I think is a good thing, because it was confirmation that I was being honest and that I wasn&#039;t just repeating someone else&#039;s lines throughout.

Plus, if some MRA ever decides that feminists. just. don&#039;t. CAAAARE about bad stuff that happens to men, or will just never ever ever admit that women can be abusive, this is one concrete incidence - one of many - that someone can point to in order to prove them wrong. It won&#039;t make a difference to them, of course, because they&#039;ve already committed to ideology over reality. But for people who are committed to reality, it will be evidence against them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kristyn: Well, that&#8217;s the thing. If we refuse to say things &#8211; things that we know to be true &#8211; because some MRA or whoever could take them and twist them into untruth, then we&#8217;re letting the opposition determine the terms of the debate for us. A particularly fringey and known-to-be-nuts variety of the opposition, at that. This is actually something that drives me a wee bit up the wall, about feminist conversations: sometimes I&#8217;m afraid we oversimplify certain principles, or refuse to say certain things, because the actual complexities or truths at hand don&#8217;t feel &#8220;safe&#8221; or in line with our predetermined talking points and agreed-upon theories. Whereas it&#8217;s precisely those complexities and uncomfortable truths we should be focusing on, really, because that&#8217;s where we need to improve our understandings. We need to go out beyond the edges of what we already understand and feel comfortable with, in order to find anything new to say. It seems like every time I write about some not-so-admirable thing that ladies do, someone weighs in to say that I&#8217;m not presenting the gender positively enough and/or giving aid to the enemy. And I don&#8217;t shitting care about that, to be totally blunt. For one, I don&#8217;t think The Enemy reads Tiger Beatdown, and for two, I care about writing the truth, because I don&#8217;t feel feminism is served or ever can be served by ignoring the truth and instead telling each other whatever is most uplifting or whatever we most want to hear. Writing this chat felt really vulnerable, for me, which I think is a good thing, because it was confirmation that I was being honest and that I wasn&#8217;t just repeating someone else&#8217;s lines throughout.</p>
<p>Plus, if some MRA ever decides that feminists. just. don&#8217;t. CAAAARE about bad stuff that happens to men, or will just never ever ever admit that women can be abusive, this is one concrete incidence &#8211; one of many &#8211; that someone can point to in order to prove them wrong. It won&#8217;t make a difference to them, of course, because they&#8217;ve already committed to ideology over reality. But for people who are committed to reality, it will be evidence against them.</p>
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