Skip to content

LADYPALOOZA PRESENTS: I Went To Your Concert and There Was Nothing Going On, or, A Meditation on Dude Music

[Hey, guys: Remember VISIONS OF MANLINESS WEEK? I sure do! Because, during that week, I was e-mailing a bunch of dudes! And, in my e-mails, I made jokes to dudes. About how they should write about things that dudes cared about, and were good at. Like comic books! Or sports! Or opening pickle jars! Or... music. For some reason, I kept referring to the process of listening to/writing about/collecting records of/playing music, specifically The Indie Rock Music, as a "dude thing?" Like, OVER AND OVER? And I was like, "wait a second, Sady. You are revealing some fundamental fucked-upness in these here jokes of yours. Because you personally listen to/write about/play music, often The Indie Rock Music, ALL THE TIME! As do lots of ladies! So, like... why do you still think of it as a thing reserved for dudes? Because these 64,000 jokes of yours would seem to indicate that you do!" Well: It turns out that there are some answers for these questions. And, for the purpose of answering them, we institute LADYPALOOZA (less stupid title TBA? No, it's not TBA. This is the title, and it's stupid), a Tiger Beatdown Theme Post Party specifically for talking about the Ladies and Music thing. It is much like Lilith Fair, except it is going to melt your face! From a variety of perspectives! First up: We start it hard, with a post by the exciting and rock-enabled Silvana. Who, it turns out, some of you may know!]

I used to be in a band.

I used to be in a band with a bunch of dudes.

People are always shocked when they hear this, if they know me, because they have a very specific sense of “women who play in bands” and it is most emphatically not me. In order to be a woman who plays in a band you have to be, first and foremost, hot. Preferably hot in that slightly NOT ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CONVENTIONALLY ATTRACTIVE way, so that dudes can believe that they are the only guy in the world who really, truly understands how hot you are, and can correspondingly believe that by bestowing upon you their belief in your paramount hotness, they are giving you a sweet gift which will make you so ecstatically happy, and can therefore believe that, because all you want in the world is for dudes to think you are hot, you will sleep with them.

You can be slightly not one hundred percent hot by doing something out of the ordinary, like wearing glasses, having a tattoo, or wearing clothes that don’t match. Just like how overalls made Rachel Leigh Cook not-hot in She’s All That, wearing striped socks with checkered shoes will get you into the dudes-love-you-because-you-just-don’t-UNDERSTAND-how-hot-you-are club.

I am not one of those women. I am, plainly, fat. I am mildly cute. And I do not look like In A Band Woman. Guys seem to have a really hard time projecting their fantasies onto me! Go figure.

But this piece is not about how I look. No, basically it is about how I hate guys who are in bands, I hate dude music, I love lady music, and I love ladies who are in bands.

You want a poster child for the “feminists hate men and they are sooooo very mean” contest? I’m it! Because when it comes to music, I am sick and tired of dudes and their guitar riffs and their opinions.

When I was in a band, I wanted to rock out so hard. We rehearsed in a storage shed with a bunch of other bands down the hall. There was no bathroom. We would drink beer and the guys would go outside and piss on the tree. I was the only woman I ever saw at that storage facility, and I would go around the corner of the shed and piss on the pavement, hoping no one came by to look at my butt. It was not a woman-friendly environment. I thought I was in the band because I was good. It turns out I was in the band because they were tolerating me, since I was dating one of the guys in the band. After I broke up with him, they kicked me out. Apparently, I was not “committed” to the band! You know, because I was applying to law school? And trying to do something with my fucking life? Never mind that all the other band-dudes were pursuing regular careers so they could, like, make money and rent apartments and buy diamond rings for their girlfriends. But no, I was to have no ambition other than being in the band or I would be bandless.

I cried. And then I realized that I hated being in the band, because I had basically zero chance of ever getting any part of my creative vision into any of our music. I had dreaded going to practice. They wanted me to try harder! Try harder?! You’re not good enough, by the way. And also, try harder at doing the things that we tell you to do, even when you object to what we’re saying, but we don’t care what you think, because LADYBUSINESS.

That was the year I really got into Le Tigre.

I had moved to the United States when I was seventeen, and I didn’t know anything about music. Everything I knew was out of date. To my mind, Nirvana was still new and this was in the year 2000. And so I fell in with all these Band Dudes who were very serious about music and took each other’s opinions about music Very Seriously. Everything they listened to was made by men. The Pixies had Kim Deal; that was basically it. As far as they were concerned, Kim Deal was the only woman in the history of women who didn’t suck at music. My only frame of reference for women making music was when I had listened to TLC and the Pocahontas soundtrack back in the eighth grade (“how high does the sycamore grow…” I can still sing that song top to bottom). So I felt like I was the only young woman in the world who felt like making some goddamned rock music.

You know what? I really, truly, believed that I sucked because I was a girl, that I must have some weird thing about me that I could just not understand how to write songs or to play guitar or to rock out or to sing angry, because of my vagina. Dudes made me believe it. Because all through college, they refused to listen to women making music, refused to listen to women’s opinions about music, and regarded women who were really into music as “cute.” If one of their girlfriends happened to like one of the dude-approved bands of Dude Music? It was, oh, isn’t that cute, until, oh god, she is copying me GET YOUR OWN MUSIC.The number one thing I learned from being in a band and hanging out with a lot of guys who were Very Serious about music is that basically the worst thing that can happen to the music you love is for too many women to like it, or for one woman that you know to like it real hard. Music that is good is not music that women go crazy for. If women go crazy for it, it must suck, because women have terrible taste and like all that chick shit and like shave their legs and stuff but oh my god it’s disgusting when they don’t.

Did you get that? You are a shitty music-lover because you do not like all the same music that they do. But if you start liking it, then the music is shitty and they stop. I remember when I started liking a Pavement album a real lot. It suddenly became the least favorite Pavement album of my fine dude friends.Back to Le Tigre. One summer I made a wonderful friend who happened to be dating a guy who, magically, did not hate women, and he had made her a mix CD with some Le Tigre songs on it. She went crazy for Le Tigre and bought all the albums. And then she made me listen, and I went crazy for Le Tigre and bought all the albums. Oh my god. Women making music. Women screaming. Women kicking ass.

I brought the albums, and Sleater-Kinney, who I also discovered through my same friend, to my dude friends. They were unimpressed. They couldn’t say why. They weren’t stupid enough at that point, or even self-aware enough, to say that they didn’t like it because it was made by women. They just happened to not like it, even though they liked ALL THIS OTHER MUSIC THAT WAS LIKE IT. I don’t know, it just doesn’t do it for me. It’s boring. It’s whiny. It’s screechy. Oh, it’s repetitive. Or is it derivative?

Whatever it is, it sucks.

Being a feminist who is into music and cares about feminism and women in music is a giant pain in the ass, because music is the greatest haven of all time for ITSJUSTMYOPINION-ism. Because, you see? Music is art. Which means if you try to criticize someone’s personal taste, especially if you are suggesting that they don’t like woman-made music because THEY HATE WOMEN, you will get nowhere. There is almost no argument you can make that will have any effect whatsoever, because it’s just my opinion, man. And people believe, they believe with all their hearts, that they are entitled to their opinions when it comes to art, even if those opinions are stupid.

My personal favorite is “I just don’t like women’s voices.” Have you ever heard, in the history of time, anyone declare that they just don’t like men’s voices? No? That’s because there are so many different kinds of men’s voices, guys! Duh!  Guys screaming, and guys shouting, tenors and baritones and bass, guys yodeling, guys crooning, guys singing slightly-out-of-tune, guys rapping, guys singing in that weird Pearl Jam voice and I know you know what I’m talking about. But women? Women’s voices. I don’t like them. They are high and whiny. I put them in the box of things I automatically don’t like.


I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything
I went to your concert and I didn’t hear anything
I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything
I went to your concert and I didn’t see anything

For me, this song was the ultimate piece of feminist music, more powerful than the songs that explicitly talked about feminism and feminists, than songs that talked about sexual assault, objectification, about the history of the struggle for women’s rights, about sex. This was a feminist song about music, about de-prioritizing men’s voices in music, about rejecting the music that men make as being kind of fucking boring.

This is what I call “dude music.” To clarify, just because music is made by men doesn’t mean it’s dude music. And just because music is made by women doesn’t mean it’s not dude music. No, dude music is music that prioritizes the status quo, that prioritize men’s voices, men’s experiences, and the experiences of people in power and who benefit from the current power structures in our society. Dude music is music that can ever be described as “noodling.” Dude music is post-rock, and prog-rock, and rock that exists not to say anything, but to showcase how awesome the men in the band are at playing guitar. Dude music is music that has nothing to offer people who are disenfranchised or oppressed, because it either is totally uninterested in their disenfranchisement/oppression, or actively profits from it. Dude music is “I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything.” Because it is made by men, for men to enjoy, for men to profit from. Women have three roles: 1) to serve as inspirations for songs; 2) to be sex objects who, hopefully, also make music men feel good about Their Art; 3) to be someone who is dangerously standing in the way of men acheiving greatness (see, e.g., Yoko Ono and Nancy Spungen, Sid Vicious’ girlfriend). Women do not make the music. Hopefully they buy the music, but not too many of them because then your music is Not Serious.

But hey, dudes who make serious, manly music? I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything. Also, fuck you.

[Silvana is a lawyer and freelance writer who lawyers and writes in Washington, D.C., and blogs as "M. LeBlanc" at the blog Bitch, Ph.D. She likes ladies who make music, hating on the prison-industrial complex, and french fries.]

187 Comments

  1. Yes yes yes yes yes.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 1:54 pm | Permalink
  2. Ali wrote:

    ‘But hey, dudes who make serious, manly music? I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything. Also, fuck you.’ – I am so tempted to run off and put that on a t-shirt right now.

    Also, um, you just wrote about my relationship with music and with the music-liking guys around me for like the whole last 5 years of my life? With astonishing accuracy? Because I have always had this sneaking suspicion that too many girls liking music = suddenly that music is not good any more. And then I would tell myself to stop reading stuff into stuff. And then it would happen again and again and oh, yeah, no getting around it, it’s true. In other depressing news, I have heard ‘women’s voices just do not sound good in rock music’ from one of my best FEMALE friends. Argh. Somebody please turn up the Le Tigre?

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 1:57 pm | Permalink
  3. Dareva wrote:

    Oh my God, Silvana? Can we please be best friends? Like, seriously? Your post made my day.

    Le Tigre changed my life when I was seventeen. Le Tigre was how I got through high school. Six years later and I’m STILL OBSESSED with Kathleen Hanna. Most of the music I listen to now is made by women. I fucking LOVE women’s voices. I love me some riot grrrl. Dudes made me feel like my taste was inferior and passe and limited for YEARS, until I learned about “self respect” and realized those dudes were assholes.

    I find it most hair-pullingly frustrating when I’m accused of having “limited” taste because I listen to mostly ladymusic of the rocking out persuasion.

    PS I’m a law student and I also enjoy hating on the prison industrial complex.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:02 pm | Permalink
  4. Kristina wrote:

    An interesting study of how many women actually make it into music and are recognized:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5937559/the_100_greatest_guitarists_of_all_time/

    Look, I’m not going to argue about a lot of these choices, but there are a few women missing. This list made me so sad. Two out of 100? Really?

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:17 pm | Permalink
  5. Rachel wrote:

    Really excellent post. Somewhat relatedly- I have always considered it a kind of character flaw when I learn that a guy is into the particularly screamy, hate-y, LIKED-ONLY-BY-WHITE-MEN (to my knowledge) kind of dude-music like er, Primus, Mudvayne, System of a Down? I would like to read something, some day, exploring why it resonates so deeply with a particular kind of dude, and what exactly that kind of music taps into, because I think I fear whatever that is.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:22 pm | Permalink
  6. katiemonstrrr wrote:

    Silvana, this was fucking perfect. I was also in a couple dude-bands in my younger days, and yeah, fucking perfect.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
  7. Britte wrote:

    I remember sitting in the back of health class freshman year of high school and telling some guys about being in a band. And one of them literally said;
    “What? Girls don’t make music. They just dance around!”
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    So thank you, Silvana, for voicing my experience with snobby “music dudes” (or on that note, film or art dudes) who won’t just not listen to music made by women, but won’t listen to any women’s opinions on music.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
  8. Samantha b. wrote:

    99% of the post is so fucking dead on, and as a not particularly musically well-educated person I’m not really the person to make this case, but fools, angels, and fear of treading: can post-rock really be defined as music that exists not to say anything? How about fucking Stereolab which writes stuff like,

    “It’s alright ’cause the historical pattern has shown,
    How the economical cycle tends to revolve,
    In a round of decades three stages stand out in a loop,
    A slump and war then peel back to square one and back for more.”

    Or Laika, who write:
    “Wondering what I’m workin’ for
    Ain’t gonna be your lowdown dog no more
    Ain’t gonna bleach an’ scrub your kitchen floor
    I wonder what I’m workin’ for”

    I’m sure it all comes down to how you do or don’t label something, but I’m not getting your assertion on that much. Which is not to say you haven’t made my day mega kilowatts brighter with this post. Danke.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:34 pm | Permalink
  9. Morgan wrote:

    I consider myself extremely fortunate in that my husband is not only a man who loves that I sing along with him on all the “dude” songs, but also sings along with me when I play Tori Amos or Amanda Palmer or whatever music full of ladybits I am listening to. He’s even bought their albums. FOR HIMSELF. I know that this is bragging, but I happen to be married to one of the only men I’ve ever met, possibly in the entire world, that truly believes women and men can rock out with equal rockingness.

    Women in rock have always been treated, at best, as a novelty to be indulged. And while I fully admit I love cock rock, I love prog, I love metal, and I will continue to love them because I am allowed to, dammit, I do not love the way women in those genres or even just enjoy listening to music in those genres are treated as outsiders.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 2:45 pm | Permalink
  10. silvana wrote:

    Yeah, Samantha B, of course there are exceptions. I was just making generalizations because that’s generally true. And because generalizations are fun. I was thinking of bands like Godspeed! You Black Emperor, Mogwai, and Explosions in the Sky (the latter of which I love! Very Dearly!) which are definitely Dude Music. I don’t think Stereolab is.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 3:00 pm | Permalink
  11. OldPandaDayz wrote:

    Le Tigre is awesome, also Pretty Girls Make Graves was awesome before they disbanded. Although she was in the band with all guys, Andrea Zollo knew how to rock. Also, when I saw them live it was truly amazing to see the entire front of the concert hall packed almost entirely with girls. And even though she’s in a bit of a different genre musically- Neko Case is a great songwriter and her voice is totally unique and beautiful!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 3:10 pm | Permalink
  12. Kripa wrote:

    90% dead on. But what’s your opinion on male-fronted bands that have a female member who’s…OK they are usually conventionally attractive, but I don’t hear too many guys being all “ZOMG SHE’S HAAWT”
    Case in point? Silversun Pickups or Smashing Pumpkins. Or Skillet or Autolux.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 3:13 pm | Permalink
  13. Ethyl wrote:

    YES! I loved this post! YESYESYES!!!

    @Samanthab — I did not read that portion teh same way, I don’t think… To me, that whole section reads as a list of things dude music can be:

    “Dude music is post-rock, and prog-rock, and rock that exists not to say anything, but to showcase how awesome the men in the band are at playing guitar.”

    So what I feel like it’s saying is that dude music gets to be all these things, it gets to encompass all this stuff, because it is the default in a way that ladyrock just isn’t in the popular mind. Dude rock is post-rock, prog-rock, AND rock that exists not to say anything. Does that make sense?

    Also, as they say, if it’s not about you don’t make it about you. Not every piece of music made by men is “dude music,” after all, and I don’t think anyone is saying such.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 3:19 pm | Permalink
  14. TheDeviantE wrote:

    Look, I know this is Ladypalooza week, but I need to say something about women and comedy. Because this post reminded me SO MUCH of an enraging conversation I had with my ex-roommate’s boyfriend. Where he told me that there just weren’t as much female comics as male comics, and I needed to list at least (10, 6, 5, I don’t remember) comics to make my point. But, then he added in all these women who DIDN’T COUNT, because he said they weren’t funny. Like Margaret Cho. And all these other women who didn’t count because they weren’t still doing stand up all the time (like Lily Tomlin) and at about this point I wanted to just sort of spit in his face.

    Which is to say, on the topic of “women not doing [x to do with music]” ARRRRGGGHHH. I SPIT IN THAT IDEA’S FACE!!!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
  15. Renee wrote:

    That Le Tigre song is awesome! cool post :)

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:14 pm | Permalink
  16. Samantha b. wrote:

    @Ethyl, I *like* your interpretation because rules bore me. And because I like your interpretation.

    Also: I’m not sure if I’m reading you right here, but, FYI, Stereolab and Laika feature ladies. Fucking fantastic ladies.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:24 pm | Permalink
  17. susanita wrote:

    I love this post! I was nodding along the whole time.

    I am scribbling down all these thing songs to add to my iTunes wishlist!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:25 pm | Permalink
  18. Ethyl wrote:

    @Samanthab —
    I’m not familiar with Stereolab or Laika, but I thought from what you said that you were arguing with the characterization of “post-rock” as “music that doesn’t say anything,” which I think was not maybe what that portion of the post was saying at all, and trying to point out that it was a list of descriptors of “dude music,” and that the adjective “music that doesn’t say anything” was not modifying “post-rock” but instead “dude music.” My brain is extremely tired today after a day of doing really really tedious poopy work for asshole boss, so I really apologize for a) not making sense, and b) totally derailing teh conversation. As I said above, I’m certain the point of this post is not to create a discussion of what music is “good” and what is “dude” and what falls into which infinitesimally-delineated categories…

    Are you folks SURE it isn’t Friday yet? I think it should be………

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:31 pm | Permalink
  19. Julie wrote:

    Thank you for putting so perfectly into words what I have been feeling and unable to express for nearly 20 years. And um, just in case you haven’t already been told 50 times today, you kick ass!!! I’m going to print this post and keep it above my desk.

    Fortunately, there is a growing antidote to “dude music” and it becoming bigger every day. Rock and Roll Camps for girls are trying to teach girls that they can make music and their opinions DO matter. If this post resonated wit you, please take a moment to read the mission statement of Girls Rock! DC and consider joining us in the movement. The showcase at the end of the camp week is a tearjerker every time. Volunteer applications just went up on our site:
    http://www.girlsrockdc.org/

    (and thanks for creating a space where it’s totally OK to say, “You know what, I hate that shit, it’s blatantly sexist, and I don’t have to defend why” and not have to take crap from a million dudes for taking a stand)

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:34 pm | Permalink
  20. Julie wrote:

    Oops–if it wasn’t clear, I meant the collective “you” in “if this post resonated with you”

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:35 pm | Permalink
  21. ozymandias wrote:

    True story: in middle-school, a friend of mine got me into punk by giving me three mixtapes: one of Green Day, one of the Ramones, and one of punk women.

    Patti Smith. The Runaways. Siouxsie and the Banshees. X Ray Spex. Blondie (apparently she was grandfathered in as punk?). Bikini Kill.

    …You know, it took me until now to realize how few bands it took to make her and me think “wow, punk has a ton of women in it, this is so cool.”

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:35 pm | Permalink
  22. Kathy wrote:

    Yes, especially to this:

    “Music is art. Which means if you try to criticize someone’s personal taste, especially if you are suggesting that they don’t like woman-made music because THEY HATE WOMEN, you will get nowhere.”

    I’m not a musician, but I’ve written about music and spent a lot of time with other music fans, most of whom are men, and most rarely listen to music made by women. When you point that out, they insist they listen to all sorts of women (and list them), but to hear guys “seriously” talk about music, how often do they mention female artists?

    and this:
    “My personal favorite is “I just don’t like women’s voices.’”
    I’ve heard this from quite a few women, too, sadly.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:37 pm | Permalink
  23. Katherine Farmar wrote:

    You know, this is yet another example of the ways in which women are erased from history, so that we aren’t given the chance to see ourselves as part of a tradition, as continuing a legacy. We are told, over and over again, that no woman has ever done whatever it is that we’re trying to do, and so, over and over again, stubborn, creative, brave, uppity women say “okay, well… I guess I’ll be the first, then.” But it’s not true! You don’t have to be a pioneer! There is a legacy and a tradition of women in rock music which is (clearly) being erased by these indie dudes who would rather preserve indie rock as some kind of gentlemen’s club.

    Here let me quote Helen Reddington’s book The Lost Women of Rock Music:

    ‘In 2001, I had just presented a paper relating to this study and I was taking questions. A male member of the audience asked the following question: “I have a friend who plays in an all-girl band. On their posters they have a photograph of the band. Why should they resort to a gimmick like this if they want to be taken seriously?” The fact that, twenty-six years after the Equal Opportunity Act, an all-girl band should still be regarded as a gimmick… did not strike him as remarkable at all… A comment by writer Caroline Coon in the interview she gave to me made a controversial point: “It would be possible to write the whole history of punk music without mentioning any male bands at all — and I think a lot of them would find that very surprising.”‘

    I mean, I could recite the names of brilliant, influential, important female rock musicians till the cows come home (Patti Smith! Janis Joplin! Grace Slick! Joan Jett! Chrissie Hynde! et cetera…) but you all know how to use Google. These women made their music and changed the face of rock for everyone coming after them — including men, including the men who would rather pretend they don’t exist. That’s a fact, and one that should be more widely known.

    (The tendency to isolate women from their predecessors by covering up the history of female creators is gone into with regard to writers in the excellent and HIGHLY recommended How to Suppress Women’s Writing by Joanna Russ.)

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:43 pm | Permalink
  24. Samantha b. wrote:

    @Ethyl, it’s not necessarily a derail to note that the exceptions to the post/prog rock rule seem to come bearing ladies? I think?
    @Ozymandias, I hadn’t realized until a month ago that “The Tide is High” wasn’t Blondie’s original but in fact a cover of the Paragons’ song to sprightly stalk by. What does it say about who was allowed to get ahead in a male dominated scene that they have to look the other way on that shit *and* look like Blondie? And call themselves “Blondie.”

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:46 pm | Permalink
  25. Silvana wrote:

    As I said above, I’m certain the point of this post is not to create a discussion of what music is “good” and what is “dude” and what falls into which infinitesimally-delineated categories

    Uh huh. The point about various bands that have ladies in them is.. beside the point. I’m not trying to make rules, I’m trying to talk about a phenomenon where women’s voices and women’s opinions are de-prioritized in the music world.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:48 pm | Permalink
  26. jessilikewhoa wrote:

    I got teary eyed at this post, and I think I also swooned a bit.

    In my head i play drums, in my apartment my landlord would kill me. Thank you for this post.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:55 pm | Permalink
  27. Yes, times infinity.

    I am very lucky to be married to a guy who is really into lady music as much as he is into dude music. He introduced me to Bikini Kill, for heaven’s sake. He is the person who encouraged me to pursue my lifelong dream of making music, in spite of the fact that I didn’t (and still don’t) “know how” to play an instrument. But our circle of musicians can be so tiresomely dudeful in so many ways that I can only partially engage in it… Luckily, this is good for the few women who are involved because we become fast friends and encourage each other as much as possible.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 4:58 pm | Permalink
  28. ozymandias wrote:

    @SamanthaB: Really? I did not know that. Yeesh.

    Another problematic kind of thing for me, at least, is bands like Mindless Self-Indulgence (female drummer and bassist) and Cobra Starship (at least one woman in all incarnations). But they still have sometimes horribly misogynistic lyrics (MSI’s “Bitches,” Cobra Starship’s “Scandalous”). And I am not sure what to think about that.

    Third thing: actually, there are many women in music– Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Katy Perry, Rhianna, Britney Spears etc. There’s just… not so many in Serious Rock Music, and they’re usually more sexualized than “woo! rock out!”. I’m not sure what this means either, just felt like pointing it out.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:03 pm | Permalink
  29. Also, I am very lucky to be co-owner (with said awesome husband) of a pretty popular online music zine so I do my best to make sure that as many women get their music reviewed as possible. It is still not as many as I would like, and it is still a huge majority of dudes who are reviewing it, but it’s something.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:10 pm | Permalink
  30. gatecrewgirl wrote:

    @Kristina: that Rolling Stone list is garbage. Where is Lita Ford? Where is Allison Robertson? If you’re going to put Kurt Cobain on there (don’t get me wrong Nirvana is awesome and changed my life but Kurt Cobain was a crappy, crappy guitarist – that was kind of the point of grunge) I want me some more ladies on that list. Also, Eddie Van Halen at #77? Really? He’s kind of a douche but he really was at the forefront in the 80s.

    @Silvana – as a lady who has been in a band, I get it. I really do get it. Some Dudes want to hold on to their rock/post-rock music so bad and sometimes Some Dudes do not want the ladies to be part of it. And that is crappy and wrong. However, I have mostly found that the dude-music that you refer to sucks and lacks musicality/talent/inspiration ANYWAY, so no real musician would ever give it the time of day. Also, most musicians I know and have played with don’t really care if you’re a lady or not as long as you can kick ass.

    Finally, as a lady guitarist, I will submit this question: I have noted that, in general, there are very few/none at all lady lead guitarists unless they are in all lady bands. Why is this????? This irritates me. Even in the band that I was in – I played rhythm guitar/keys! However our lead guitarist was awesome and more importantly way better than me. Hmm. The conundrum continues.

    (note: as far as prog-rock goes, I encourage you to have a listen to Delain and Ambeon)

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:21 pm | Permalink
  31. Jezebella wrote:

    Ozymandias and Samantha B., please understand that Deborah Harry is not and never was named “Blondie”. Blondie is the BAND. And was not “grandfathered in as punk”. They were playing CBGBs in New York in the mid 1970s. They ARE punk. I know, you are young and you do not remember this, but please, before you dis a badass like Deborah Harry, get your facts straight, please.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:21 pm | Permalink
  32. emjaybee wrote:

    This is the appropriate place to tell you all that if you want the girls of today to become the Rockers of Tomorrow, you should contribute to Girls’ Rock Camp (there are several, Portland OR is the original).

    http://www.girlsrockcamp.org/supporters/grca

    If you already have rock skills, and there’s one in your area, volunteer to teach!

    Or you can do what I did, which is go to one of the weekend Ladies Rock Camps fundraisers and rock your own bad self. Even if you’ve never played anything before, you can get up and wail, they provide instruments and instruction. Also, there’s usually a few nights of drunken city-touring and lady-bonding. Seriously, DO IT.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:36 pm | Permalink
  33. scotty wrote:

    Great post! I’m in an all guy hard rock band and keep trying to convince our lead guitarist to add a female singer but he’s convinced that it’ll make the sound too poppy. The weird thing is the girls play heavier than he does!

    Also, mogwai is awesome,

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:53 pm | Permalink
  34. Sady wrote:

    @TheDeviantE: Right. In the Handbook for Defending Oneself Against Charges of Sexism, Section #1041-B requires that the Dude defending himself may be excused from ignoring, marginalizing, or dismissing women by saying “but there just aren’t any WOMEN in those fields!” Until you point out the women who are there. At that point, Dude X may say, “but there aren’t any GOOD WOMEN in those fields!” The Dude’s Sexism has thus been Conclusively Disproved! This applies to: History, critical analysis of pop culture, hiring people for jobs, etcetera…

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 5:59 pm | Permalink
  35. Newageamazon wrote:

    THANK YOU.

    I’m a music reporter who’s done a lot of work in what’s considered the “new” punk scene (read: Fall Out Boy soundalikes and guys with synths and access to Myspace) and it is a boys club through and through. Even worse is the growing acceptance of music that encourages violence against women and date rape. Even when it’s not blatant there is still a very clear message of “We’re the boys who make the music, you’re the girls who want to sleep with us because we do it. Oh, and that makes you all whores, just so you know.”

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:00 pm | Permalink
  36. Sady wrote:

    @Kripa: Errrr, PLENTY of dudes have pointed out D’Arcy’s hotness to me, within my hearing. Or Kim Gordon’s. Or whoever. (Of course, Kim Gordon is also a frontwoman sometimes, but whatevs.) If the lady isn’t noticed as being hot? They don’t mention her when they’re talking about the awesomeness of said band.

    And, er, SPEAKING of Kim Gordon/Kim Deal/D’Arcy, can we at SOME point address the theory, put forth to me by many a gentleman, that “the only instrument girls play/can play well is bass?” Because. UGH.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:03 pm | Permalink
  37. Sady wrote:

    @samantha b: I step away from the computer for a few hours, and someone starts a-fussin’ and a-feudin’ in the Tiger Beatdown Comment Hootenanny! (I have no idea why I am talking like a cartoon farmer. I do it BECAUSE I CAN!) Anyway, removing for one moment the piece of straw from betwixt my lips (I call it my “chewing straw”), and setting down my various whittling (I am whittling myself a “chewing straw”), I have to concur with many other commenters that (a) those genres are, very often, male-dominated, and (b) the point of the post is not to identify certain genres AS “dude music” (because, like, duh, where is HEAVY METAL? Where is RAP-ROCK? Where are JAM BANDS? Those are some dudely-ass genres; also, I hate all of them except for some metal?) but to point out how many genres can be.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Permalink
  38. Sady wrote:

    @Rachel: Jesus Christ. Listening to any band with the name “Mudvayne” is a character flaw REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR POLITICAL AFFILIATION. If your band misspells commonly used, single-syllable words for effect, and is not the fictional band Wyld Stallyns (of Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventuring fame), we are done here. SO DONE! See also: Puddle of Mudddddddddddddd.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
  39. Irised wrote:

    ohhh, this was really interesting and good. And also, I loved your last line. nice.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:14 pm | Permalink
  40. Sady wrote:

    @thewhatifgirl: Right on. The weird over-prevalence of dudes in rock criticism can’t be explained by any other factor than the idea that Music Belongs To Dudes And They Get To Tell You What Is Good. And, like, I know and like some dude rock critics. But the field is completely fucking dominated by them. Whereas, like, women are doing some of the most interesting writing about music today! And I’m always glad when one of us gets recognized (Maura Johnston, Ann Powers, etc.) but it’s weird how boys’-club the whole deal tends to be.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:15 pm | Permalink
  41. speedbudget wrote:

    I love Kittie. They rock so hard.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:20 pm | Permalink
  42. ozymandias wrote:

    @Sady: That’s totally not true. Women can play bass and keytar. TONS of options for women, music has.

    @newageamazon: I agree with your thoughts and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    @Jezebella: That was what I meant, but I guess I didn’t convey it very well. What I meant was “it sounds really poppy to me– not much like the Clash and sure as hell not like hardcore, but because she was around during CBGB’s, she’s still punk.” I have this problem sometimes where what my brain means doesn’t show up on the computer screen. :)

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:23 pm | Permalink
  43. gatecrewgirl wrote:

    @TheDeviantE and Sady: I am an idiot. Heart. Lady lead guitarist(s) in band with dudes. They do Led Zeppelin covers at their shows! (so does Pink!). I rescind my whiny “why are there no lady lead guitarists except in lady bands”. Because you’re both right. It is totally perpetuating the sentiments of Dude X. It is also hugely lazy of me to say.

    Additionally, I have had the -yes of course there are lady comedians and they are funny- conversation with a disagreeing party. Which ended with me wanting to spit in their faces.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:28 pm | Permalink
  44. Isabel wrote:

    I WANT TO MAKE OUT WITH THIS POST. I have guy friends who have straight up said women just don’t make as good music as dudes (except, for whatever reason, Emily Haines of Metric – which, on the one hand, Metric is great, on the other hand they also like her solo stuff which is… exactly like a zillion things they roll their eyes at me for liking, except slower). I also have guy friends – well, okay, one particular guy friend (who, I swear to god, I read this post and sent it to a friend who knows but is not friend with this friend and said SOMEONE WROTE A POST ABOUT [X]) – who I’m pretty sure just like, straight-up dismisses anything at all the second it comes recommended from me. It is MADDENING. MADDENING.

    damn i just love this post SO MUCH, like insert-lolcat-here levels of love.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:48 pm | Permalink
  45. Saje Williams wrote:

    Modern American rock music bores the crap out of me. All the interesting stuff is coming out of Europe. A lot of female fronted metal, for example. Symphonic and power metal, specifically. Bands like Nightwish, Epica, Gwyllion, Edenbridge, Domina Nocta, Ebony Ark, etc… Some decent female fronted American acts too, like Deadman’s Wake. I like female vocals, personally, because they can do things no man can do. From rough and abrasive to sharp as thorns, to soft as silken rose petals… all in the same song. And Simone Simons of Epica, while certainly beautiful, is a world class vocal talent on top of it. And Epica, despite the “noodling,” has a lot of songs that show a great deal of social awareness. Of course, they’re European, so that’s hardly a surprise.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 7:48 pm | Permalink
  46. Samantha b. wrote:

    @Sady,@jezebella, you have good points, both.
    But I would hope that 1) this is nothing like a hootenany, unless Porter Waggoner is hosting, in which case I am eminently in favor. And 2) I actually *do* think it’s not an irrelevant point that the voices of the marginalized (which, hello, women in music!)have been erased in the discussion of certain genres. I, myself, because I am a huge pain in your arse and my own, do not actually find that generalizations are fun. I may be entirely on my own here (welcome to my life!, ) but I have so far found that they are reasonably problematic. Essentially what has been presented here- amongst so much that I am unquestionabl in favor of!!!- is that, most likely via aesthetic tastes which inevitably blind us all, certain voices in certain realms do not have an appropriate say in these realms. Those voices, which just so happen to be those of the marginalized, aren’t deemed relevant. And this makes me uncomfortable.

    If I’m totally wacky here, please do make me comfortable! It’s a nicer place to be.

    On the Blondie front, sure, Deborah Harry was at CBGB- cool,- and it was the name of a band that she just happened to be the blond face of. But I don’t think that negates the point that she diffused, by flipping a song around to a female voice (and who are what exactly percentage of stalking cases that end in violence?) a pretty difficult picture. Please do inform if I’m very densely missing something. I’ve had a crap day amidst some crap past few months, and I’m entirely willing to concede that I have missed some stuff in this excellent post and ensuing conversation.

    And: may I have my spangly hootenany outfit now? It *is* Loretta Lynn’s birthday, bless her soul via whatever source that blesses genius people with shiny raven hair.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 7:52 pm | Permalink
  47. NickS wrote:

    Fantastic post.

    Because I am, comparatively speaking, a giant hippie let me recommend Janis Ian’s Play Like A Girl on the subject.

    It is irresistibly happy and contains lines like, “Women may give birth and stuff but / They aren’t really tough enough.” I love it.

    Also, on the subject of “not liking women’s voices” one of the more interesting moments for me in Radical Harmonies was hearing somebody say that, in the 70s, most pop music producers and sound engineers had no experience miking or producing female singers and just didn’t know how to set up the sound to benefit them.

    Realizing that fact made a number of the people decide that they had to think about building and infrastructure of female recording engineers, concert promoters, etc. According to the documentary that was the motivation behind Olivia Records which, inevitably, had it’s own problems, but that story gave me a different sense of the challenges faced by female musicians at the time.

    Obviously there have been any number of superstar female blues and jazz singers, but it made it sound like the indie music world of the 70s wasn’t interested in accommodating women at all.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 8:04 pm | Permalink
  48. xenu01 wrote:

    yes yes yes omg yes!

    Also, I would totally go and see your band.

    I was just having a conversation (really, a series of conversations) with my music-loving dude friend what it means when White Dudes Who Like Indie Music say “Oh, I don’t like rap. And pop! Ew! I hate pop!”

    Because, you see, I have this theory that “pop” equals lady-people and “rap” equals black people and I love reading things like this because I’m not alone in thinking this!

    So thank you, THANK YOU, for writing this article.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 8:28 pm | Permalink
  49. ozymandias wrote:

    @SamanthaB: I think all it was was that Jezebella thought we were having a bit of a critical research failure about Blondie’s punk status and name, and was justifiably annoyed. Your point still stands. And frankly stalking songs are not only creepy, but way overdone. I think the issue of stalking has been explored already! Let us come up with new topics for rock songs!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 8:42 pm | Permalink
  50. bookbat wrote:

    Xenu01: they also often say they don’t like country, because country is for poor people.

    Kick-ass post, Silvana. I’m on Sleater-Kinney youtube kick now.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 9:00 pm | Permalink
  51. @ Sady, we definitely try to break out of the I Know So Much More Than You Thus I Am A Critic And Can Tell You What Opinion You Should Have thing. That kind of writing bores the sh*t out of me anyway.

    @ Ozymandias, I was just thinking the other day that we need more songs about respect. Love is all well and good but RESPECT is what we really need.

    Also, to no one in particular, the denigration of groupies (as they are currently imagined) is a part of this web. In researching some music, I came across a book (I WISH I could remember what it was!) that claimed ‘groupies’ were originally just supporters of a band, who may or may not have been female, may or may not have let the band sleep at their house while touring, may or may not have fed the band, and may or may not have slept with the band, but were essential components of the music community. According to this same book, Rolling Stone was the reason for the changeover from that definition to the one we know today. In which case, I am going to have to proudly reclaim the word ‘groupie’ because I definitely support bands, let them sleep at my house while on tour, feed them, but don’t sleep with them. I encourage you all to join me.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 9:25 pm | Permalink
  52. ozymandias wrote:

    @Thewhatifgirl: I propose a song titled “I Like You (But Since You Don’t Like Me, I Shall Respect Your Decision And Neither Stalk You Nor Call You A Whore).” Also “Hey, You Are Awesome In A Totally Platonic Way.” And “People (Strangely Remain People Regardless of Gender Identity).”

    … I may need to work on my leet song-titling skillz.

    That’s an interesting bit about the groupies, too.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 9:36 pm | Permalink
  53. Brimstone wrote:

    “Because, you see, I have this theory that “pop” equals lady-people and “rap” equals black people and I love reading things like this because I’m not alone in thinking this!”

    It ties in with the whole ‘rockism’ debate, which claims that the conception of rock as more authentic, pure, better, etc marginalizes alot of voices. There seems to be a shift in music critic circles to talking about pop. There was a later article by the same article, Sasha Frere-Jones, that called out Indie Rock for being white and upper class

    I’m guilty of alot of this, and I’m not sure why. Most of the female artists I listen to are in jazz/blues/country… I’m going to step out of the debate ’cause I think i’m part of the problem but I am going to mention Magic Dirt, an awesome female-fronted Australian rock band

    and that time the Bellrays stunned a crowd of older macho Aussie rock fans. that was a fun night

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:05 pm | Permalink
  54. JRoth wrote:

    Woo! M. LeBlanc! It was fun reading this not knowing it was you until the end – I never knew you were in bands.

    Anyway, good post, and I’m very glad that I’ve never been part of band dude culture, because…Jesus. I still get wistful whenever I hear early Alanis or Jewel or Tracy Bonham because they remind me of the 10 minutes in 1995 when it seemed like women’s music – loud and quiet, brash and introspective, pretty and plain – would actually get to be part of the culture. Pittsburgh even had a radio station dedicated to women’s music, and not in the easy listening sense, either.

    And then it turned into 1997 and everything turned into Nickelback and Staind and shit. I’m still depressed about that.

    Also, anyone who listens to Rush or Neil Young has absolutely no right to object to “women’s voices.”

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:13 pm | Permalink
  55. beejeez wrote:

    I’m just a geezer musico dude, so what do I know? But Ladypalooza’s rant sounds about right to me. The most interesting new music I’ve heard in the last 15 years or so has come from the ladies. I don’t think this is a new phenomenon at all. What’s new is that pretty much every dude band kinda sucks.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:13 pm | Permalink
  56. Brenda wrote:

    Ladypalooza! This is awesome.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:14 pm | Permalink
  57. beejeez wrote:

    I’m just a geezer musico dude, so what do I know? But I think Ladypalooza has it about right. To my ears, the only really interesting stuff in the last 15 years or so has been done by the ladies. Not that women making great music is anything new. What’s new is that just about every dude band kinda sucks. Dudes need to shut up and go back to the drawing board. I for one am working on the problem.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:21 pm | Permalink
  58. JRoth wrote:

    Reading through my comment, I’m not sure I quite made sense. The thing about band dude culture (and by extension, music dude culture): I’m reading “High Fidelity” right now, and it’s pretty fucking annoying, between the rockism* and the sexism and the self-pitying/self-aggrandizing dude BS. I didn’t expect to love it (it was on the shelf ‘cos my wife read it years ago), but sheesh. If not for a handful of pretty funny lines, I would’ve bailed by now.

    Anyway, that’s what I was getting at with “part of band dude culture.” I’m not personally musical, and so my musical consumption has always been very much in the fan vein, rather than band dude or album collector/music aficionado veins. There’s a vast array of dude subcultures that, ultimately, trace their ostensible legitimacy to He-Man Girl-Hater Club membership. Music is rife with them.

    * I actually tend a bit rockist myself, but I recognize it as contingent taste, not moral stance

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:26 pm | Permalink
  59. RetiredMusician wrote:

    I’m so old….

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:28 pm | Permalink
  60. Silvana wrote:

    most likely via aesthetic tastes which inevitably blind us all, certain voices in certain realms do not have an appropriate say in these realms

    I’m sorry, I just don’t know what this means. Please to explain?

    Are you saying that I’m marginalizing voices because I’ve labeled certain genres as “dude music”? Come on now.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:47 pm | Permalink
  61. Jen wrote:

    You are so awesome I can barely stand it. I had a boyfriend (dudefriend?) who told me he didn’t like Sleater-Kinney because he was “into stuff that is a little more complex.” The fuck? He also told me he preferred the women he was with to be very pale and does not like the larger ladies, so I guess we’re covering all bases of douche, here.

    Also @thedeviante re: Comedy, YES. See also Maria Bamford, seriously.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:50 pm | Permalink
  62. Silvana wrote:

    could we please discus this without the generalizations

    No.

    Seriously, how are you supposed to talk about phenomena without making generalizations?

    I just assume that people insert mental caveats, because duh. It’s hyperbole! For comedic effect! With Jokes! Obviously I don’t mean that I hate every guy that is in a band. I’m talking about patterns of how women are treated in the music-making and music-listening world.

    Sure, I could write a post that was “here is how I was treated like crap, in a way that was totally isolated and not related to anyone else’s experience.”

    But the reactions of women reading this blog and on other blogs suggest that hey, it wasn’t just me.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:51 pm | Permalink
  63. Alexandra wrote:

    Love it! LOVE it! I got that you were talking about certain types of guys, and as someone who has faced that similar experience of just NOT being taken seriously musically by that type of guy (and them being the only resource for a band) I totally feel this ENTIRE thing. I have nothing to say except to describe every which way how much I adore this.

    Also, I don’t look like I should play guitar or be in bands either. I am an English major, and I LOOK like one. Not the cute stylish sorta hipster type who wear hats and vests and make it all Victorian-era retro. No, the sort that dressed in the dark and didn’t brush her hair and has big dark circles under her eyes from staying up all night reading, and walks around bumping into things because she’s holding a book to her nose.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 10:54 pm | Permalink
  64. Silvana wrote:

    by your logic, you are saying that it is okay if people bash women, as long as it is “for comedic effect.”

    No. Dude. Here’s a generalization about women that is not sexist:

    “Women feel pressure to get married.”

    Is that true of all women? Nope! Is it true of many, many women? Yes. Is it an important observation that tells us something about the world we live in?

    Here’s a generalization about women that is sexist:

    “Women just want men who have lots of money.”

    Not true of most women! Plus! Serves sexism and male privilege very nicely!

    Just because there are sexist generalizations doesn’t mean all generalizations are sexist.

    And you know what? When I had that friend who was dating a guy who introduced her to Le Tigre? He was literally the only guy I knew who was interested in music that was made by women. Like, really interested. Was he the only such guy in the world? No. But it sure felt like it at the time.

    Anyway, I’m done with this particular line of argument. If you can’t see that generalizations are necessary to talk about the way sexism and misogyny work in our world, I don’t know what to tell you.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 11:13 pm | Permalink
  65. TheDeviantE wrote:

    Will, might I suggest a wonderful concept called: “if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t try to make it be all about YOU YOU YOU” (ok, the phrasing needs work). Because I am ALSO a feminist guy who doesn’t hate women, but interestingly I felt absolutely no compunction to jump in and tell Silvana that she was WRONG WRONG WRONG (and horrible to boot) for saying that men in general seem to hate women. Because, you know what? As a feminist, I actually know that the society we live in treats women pretty much like crap, and that an astounding large percentage of guys, (even if they don’t go around kicking puppies muttering about their hatred of women), do indeed act at times like they hate women. Like oh, when they say that women’s voices are “screechy” or when they say that women aren’t comics or that the ones out there “just aren’t funny” or when they rape women, or ogle them on the bus, or any number of creeptastic things that seem to show they don’t like women all that much. Which is to say: IF THE SHOE DOESN’T FIT, DON’T MAKE IT BE ALL ABOUT YOU YOU YOU!!!!!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 11:39 pm | Permalink
  66. Memoirgirl wrote:

    You really hit the nail on the head for me. In college, I had a group of friends that included guys who loved Dinosaur Jr. I liked the band, not all of the songs, but I had the sense that even if I did LOVE them, I couldn’t have ever really understood the music like they did. A girlfriend was into pretty hard rock (Metallica comes to mind) and I don’t think they took her seriously. It was as if because boys play air guitar, they take the music more seriously.

    What I love about my husband is that we like different kinds of music and give each other the space to be enthusiastic about what we love. Also, we both listened to the B-52′s (talk about NOT SERIOUS!) pretty heavily in our day, and I don’t think I ever heard a guy admit that.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 11:45 pm | Permalink
  67. TheDeviantE wrote:

    aww, that’s too bad, Will got deleted and now my poor comment calling him out for making it be all about shoe-fitting and him him him-ness is lonely.

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 11:57 pm | Permalink
  68. Sady wrote:

    – AND NOW, AN INTERESTING STORY –

    Once upon a time, there were some commenters (and their names began with “L” and “W”) who tried to make the “but not ALL DUDES ARE LIKE THAT” argument. However, since we were specifically having a discussion about Dudes Who Are Like That, and since we generally resist the tendency to try to put a guest poster on the defensive in her own guest post (“I know you spent a while writing this, and working on it, and put yourself out on the line in this way, and got through the whole complicated idea-to-post-to-publication-on-someone-else’s-space process, which I have not done, but… HUZZAH! I am now the authority in this publication! APPEASE ME, WOMAN”) those commenters were deleted! It was a magical time for us all. And you may learn from their sad example!

    Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 11:58 pm | Permalink
  69. Lauren B. wrote:

    Okay then, Sady. Please disregard that comment I told you yesterday about how you were my favorite feminist blog, because i am never going to read Tiger Beatdown again.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:03 am | Permalink
  70. Will wrote:

    You know, it is the primary hint of closed mindedness to only listen to yes men, instead of those with differing opinions. I got deleted because i didn’t agree… amazing. Lets see how fast this one gets deleted.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:03 am | Permalink
  71. Yes, because we should totally be open-minded about people who are being self-centered and deliberately dense.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:15 am | Permalink
  72. Will wrote:

    If you think i am being self centered and deliberately dense, that’s your opinion. I am open to the possibility. Now, if you would kindly deconstruct my argument and show me how you came to that conclusion, i would be much obliged.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:19 am | Permalink
  73. Out of respect for Sady, I will have to bow out of your invitation for a thread derail. Thanks anyway!

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:27 am | Permalink
  74. jessilikewhoa wrote:

    I was thinking about this post more, because it hit me really hard in a very important way, and reminded me of the secret girl rock underground which is life sustaining and which sorta revives me when I think about it. Anyway, it reminded me of Jessica Hopper’s brilliant piece “Emo: Where the Girls Aren’t” in the sadly defunct Punk Planet and so i scoured the web for it, and I’m gonna post a link, I hope that’s ok, but I feel like maybe someone here might not have seen it and it could make them feel again like this post made me feel, less isolated, like I’m not the only one afterall drowning in a sea of dudeliness.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20031002042645/http://www.punkplanet.com/archives/00000004.html

    Will’s entitled whining reminds me of the part in “Brat Girl” by Bratmobile where Allison barks out “get on your knees and suck my clit” like she’s 50 feet tall. I have no interest in hearing entitled dude voices in this space right now, this post is too important for that shit.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:32 am | Permalink
  75. Erin wrote:

    Oh my God. You two are whiny babies. Grow up please.

    And because of this fact, I will NEVER READ YOUR COMMENTS AGAIN!
    ::storms of melodramatically, in Lauren’s wake::

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:40 am | Permalink
  76. Laima wrote:

    Will, you’re trying to make everything all about YOU YOU YOU again. No one here owes you anything.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:42 am | Permalink
  77. Will wrote:

    hypocrisy at its best… lets not derail the topic, meaning i shouldn’t, but you can. Before today, this was a bastion for learned intellectualized discussion. Now it is down to “nu-uhh, YOUR FAT”… the dramatically immature set of responses has made me fear for the future of feminism if you all are in it. Now i see why people don’t take us seriously. Goodbye.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:46 am | Permalink
  78. JfC wrote:

    You know I was thinking about this the other day when I was rewatching Almost Famous, specifically the scene where the band barters their groupies to another band for $50 and a case of beer.

    “What is so fucking rebellious and counter culture about RECREATING THE SAME POWER IMBALANCES THAT EXIST IN THE MAINSTREAM?!?! In the mainstream, white dudes are king. Here, white dudes are king. I bet you’re all ‘but we’re sexually liberated, we can openly treat women as sexual property and we’re not shackled to the ideals of the stuffy squares,’ to which I say ‘AAAAUGH’ in the manner that Peanuts characters do”.

    I think the movie really missed out on exploring that angle, but instead was like “oh it was so mean because it targeted Penny Lane, with whom Russell was supposed to be in Wuv. Not because it’s intrinsically a shitty system. I mean, yeah, it’s no big thing to treat the other girls like chattel, but not her.”

    For an example of a show that partially exposes how supposed counter culture movement can actually just reinforce the primacy of White Dude-ness, see Mad Men’s treatment of beatniks. That one gave me a happy.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:24 am | Permalink
  79. MapRef41N93W wrote:

    At the risk of totally missing the point here, I have a couple questions about the last part of the article.

    How does a piece of music go about offering something to the disenfranchised or oppressed? Are we just talking about lyrical content here, or can instrumental music be of sufficient aesthetic value–presumably noodle-free and avoiding chops for the sake of chops–to fit the bill?

    If the former, does that mean that instrumental music, even if written and played by women, is doomed to be dude music? If the latter, how does music without words convey interest in disenfranchisement/oppression? How does it “say something”?

    Just to be clear, I’m not trying to dispute the larger point, which I think is beyond reproach.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:26 am | Permalink
  80. Brimstone wrote:

    There are a few females who are doing the ‘dude music’ guitar stuff (I guess… i don’t listen to the noodly guitar music) – Kaki King and Australia’s Orianthi – and the media heavily sexualizes them. Which is pretty sad

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:35 am | Permalink
  81. Maud wrote:

    I read this thread with interest, but have nothing to contribute because I gave up listening to rock back in the ’70s and failed to take it back up again, listening ever since to blues and gospel and opera and weird stuff like that.

    But this comment of Will’s, “Before today, this was a bastion for learned intellectualized discussion. Now it is down to “ ‘nu-uhh, YOUR FAT’ ” was the funniest thing I’ve read in a while. Similarly, “Okay then, Sady. Please disregard that comment I told you yesterday about how you were my favorite feminist blog, because i am never going to read Tiger Beatdown again.”

    Garsh, but learned “intellectualized” discussion can go downhill fast when the proper attention is not paid and cossetting provided to those who demand it! We must let it be a lesson to us.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 4:55 am | Permalink
  82. Silvana wrote:

    Oh my god, Jessilikewhoa:

    THANK YOU VERY VERY VERY FUCKING MUCH

    for linking to that Jessica Hopper piece. That piece is amazing. That is the piece I was trying to write. That is the piece I would write if I were a way better writer and knew way more about music. Oh my god.

    This: “yet another all dude band giving us the 411 on his personal romantic holocaust” is like the best thing written in the history of ever.

    Just thought everyone else should know, because you guys need to read that.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 7:09 am | Permalink
  83. Simon W wrote:

    Wow, it sounds like your music liking male friends at University sucked!

    I don’t have much so add, except to point out that there is some really great female-led post rock out there. If you don’t know them check out Electrelane, who were teh awesome.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 7:45 am | Permalink
  84. Ethyl wrote:

    You know, I was thinking about this last night, and I realized the very same thing happens with comics. So frustrating.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:27 am | Permalink
  85. SeanH wrote:

    Fuck yeah, Silvana.

    The same problem is pretty much endemic in metal, where there are a shitload of talented women – I’m listening to Otep right now – who get sexualised and then marginalised for being sexy.

    There’s also a nasty double-bind on female fans, where on the one hand the metal community has your common or garden sexism which ignores female fans, and on the other hand progressive critics say things like “only white men like System of a Down/Slipknot/whatever”, which is plainly false and erases the experience of the female metalheads and metalheads of colour.

    It’s an odd collusion between sexist gatekeepers and their critics – both insist that the only real fans of X are Straight White Men, so critics can dismiss X and gatekeepers can pretend all fans of X look like them, and both marginalise and ignore female/gay/nonwhite/whatever fans of X.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:32 am | Permalink
  86. Farore wrote:

    Man, you can really tell who the REAL feminists are by how they respond to criticism and disagreement. Fake feminists respond by checking their privilege, fully considering whether or not the criticism may be, actually, valid, and apologizing if they have upset the poster or webmistress (because that sort of thing is for WHINY, BICKERING LITTLE GIRLS amirite???!?). REAL FEMINISTS respond with ‘WELL THEN I’M NEVER READING YOUR BLOG AGAIN, SO THERE’ or ‘ENGAGE WITH ME ON MY TERMS, EXACTLY THE WAY I WANT YOU TO, AND THEN PROCLAIM ME KING OTHERWISE YOU ARE ~~~~~***~~~RUINING FEMINISM~~~~~***~~~~~~’. Allcaps for emphasis, because those are very very very important things to say and essential to the feminist discourse, dontcha know.

    Silliness aside, this was a great post! I join the ranks of people saying ‘you articulated my experience!’ with a hearty hurrah. Also, what JRoth said – Hi M LeBlanc! You are an awesome writer! I have only read your comments on other blogs before, not your own blog, but after reading this post I do believe I shall have to Check It Out!

    Also also, this post reminded me somewhat of the webcomic Questionable Content, which, while it is written by an Indie Dude and the main character in an Indie Dude, there are actually way more female characters than male, and they are regularly shown one-upping the Dude with their Indie Cred, and also it deals with a lot of very real problems and handles them humorously and usually in a fairly loving way. Also: Dudes getting called out on sexism! So what I am saying is that if you are a lady who enjoys the indie music, you will probably like QC at least a little bit.

    SHUTTING UP NOW SORRY

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 9:44 am | Permalink
  87. LJ wrote:

    I hope this post inspires more women to make music. I’ve been in bands for 10 years and am in three projects right now. There can be a lot of dude shenanigans but I’ve been lucky to be respected in all my bands. I’m also very fortunate to have my own all-female metal band with some of my best friends.

    Maybe things are a bit different in my scene, or maybe things are just changing in general, but I see lots of women playing music where I am. Hopefully they feel valued and respected. We have a long way to go but I hope I’m doing my little part in changing the status quo. Ignore the haters and keep on rockin’.

    Also +1,000,000 about the “I don’t like women’s voices” comment. It’s related to the opinion that men’s stories are universal but women’s stories are a “special topic” or “unrelatable.” BS!

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 9:53 am | Permalink
  88. Shorter Will: *flounce*

    I thought this was awesome, and so, so true. The silencing and marginalization of everyone but straight white dudes in indie music is so stultifying – their music just goes around in circles, and never gets anywhere new.

    And if we’re going to whine about voices we hate, I hate whiny white boys whining into the mic about their love lives. But as we know, straight white dudes are the only people whose live matter, amirite?

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 10:47 am | Permalink
  89. E wrote:

    Lester Bangs wrote this great piece about women making music, and when I read this piece I thought ‘Oh! Maybe that Lester Bangs essay is semi-relevant here!’:
    http://www.keyofz.com/vvoice.htm

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:21 am | Permalink
  90. Kripa wrote:

    @Sady: Point well taken, but http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080702014058AAA3NVY.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:29 am | Permalink
  91. jessilikewhoa wrote:

    Silvana, I’m happy you liked that piece. I came across it years ago, I can’t remember how, either when it was first in Punk Planet, or through a link on Feministing, and it floored me.

    But you shouldn’t be like “That is the piece I was trying to write. That is the piece I would write if I were a way better writer and knew way more about music” because your piece here made me feel the exact same way Hopper’s piece did. You should take a lesson from Sady fucking Doyle and revel in your own awesomeness.

    Again, thanks for writing this.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:32 am | Permalink
  92. Nicole wrote:

    Awesome post, but made me angry just REMEMBERING how my guy friends acted toward me and other girls who appreciated music in highschool. I really thought women couldn’t make decent music. Bah! That makes me mad!

    On a happier note, anyone else notice that NPR Music does a pretty decent job highlighting female-made music? Love it!

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:39 am | Permalink
  93. Kripa wrote:

    Oops, dead link!
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080702014058AAA3NVY

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:40 am | Permalink
  94. Geek wrote:

    Ugh, you brought me back to the time I dated a music guy, and he said writing fiction wasn’t “art”. F*cker. Not you, the guy.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:50 am | Permalink
  95. Caleb wrote:

    i’ll be succinct because everyone has said what i’d like to say; fabulous. and, true.

    also, guys singing in that weird Pearl Jam voice and I know you know what I’m talking about.

    hahaha, yes, yes we do.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:52 am | Permalink
  96. Han wrote:

    This was so AWESOME! Thank you for writing such a perfect, perfect post.

    Also, I would like to submit “Yeah, there’s a girl in that band, and she’s actually pretty good,” to the list of bullshit that needs to stop.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 11:57 am | Permalink
  97. Uncle Ebeneezer wrote:

    Sylv, I really enjoyed this post. It sounds like the guys you played with were a bunch of douche-holes. I’ve been in bands for 20+ years, and in all of the situations with female musicians I never saw very much of the type of treatment you mention. But my musical area is a bit different (GNR/classic rock in HS, grunge in college, jamband post college and now alot of jazz, blues, whatever they will pay me to play) so maybe I just don’t know the indie scene well enough. And also, most of my experiences involved bands where the female was the STAR of the show (whether talent warranted it or not) and they often had egos that could dwarf that of almost any male, guitar-rock wannabe.

    I do find the question of differeing taste between genders quite interesting. I have always loved dude rock that is heavy ala Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, TOOL, Deftones etc. And while I see no reason why females can’t make music like that I have yet to see any real success. (I was largely unimpressed with Sleater-Kinney when I saw them at a festival, but it was early and I was pretty hungover.) To my knowledge PJ Harvey is about the only female artist who has nailed the dark/heavy thing in a captivating way. Likewise, very few males (Jeff Buckley, Elliott Smith) have been able to capture the more feminine style of lilting vocals, pensive (but not too sappy) lyrics etc. My guess would be that most people gravitate towards music that seems honest. Therefore, harder aggressive music seems more honest coming from a bag of testoserone (male) and music that is more tender tends to seem more honest coming from a female. Obviously a nature/nurture debate of MANY words could ensue, but I’m just thinking aloud.

    The most upsetting thing you mentioned is the lack of females in the music criticism field. It’s sad and bizarre. My female friend’s opinions on music are always fascinating to me, because they are so alien to the way I think about music. I would definitely welcome more of that in the music press.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:03 pm | Permalink
  98. Nomie wrote:

    This post: YES. Also, HELL YES.

    One of the reasons I love seeing Ingrid Michaelson live is her backing band, who are all very talented musicians. And? Guitars: Allie Moss and Bess Rogers. Two very talented musicians in their own right, but it is also awesome to see THREE women in the front, with a couple of dudes in the background maybe. It might not be Rocking Out, but it’s still very satisfying to me.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:14 pm | Permalink
  99. I was raving about this post to my husband this morning so of course I eventually had to say, “Just read it!” So now he is reading it, and just turned to me and said, “That first paragraph, that describes Creepy Dude Syndrome (c) to a tee!”

    You see, we have had many conversations about guys who act like women in bands are there just to sleep with them, and who like the band solely because of the “sexy” women in them – even when those “sexy” women haven’t been given an objectifying public image at all but are, instead, just Making Music While Female. I have heard some creepy, creepy stuff from guys who said they liked a band but, upon further explication, clearly were more interested in the fantasy that the woman might graciously decide to sleep with the guy just because he liked her music.

    @ Uncle Ebeneezer, I appreciate your comment and I agree for the most part but I have to say, just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There have been plenty of times when I have pointed out things to my husband that he didn’t see before just because he doesn’t have the life experience to connect the dots between what, to him, are disparate moments. He’s gotten better about it over the years, as I’ve pointed out more and more to him…

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Permalink
  100. dadanarchist wrote:

    This is an interesting article, but I guess as a dude I would like further clarification of the category “dude music.” It seems somewhat nebulous and I am unclear if it is a critical, aesthetic or normative category. Can women play dude rock? Would that be a form of false consciousness? Or is dude rock by definition the province of dudes only?

    I am particularly puzzled with a reference to post-rock as a “dude rock” domain. That might be true for certain strains of math rock (Don Caballero, Tortoise and noted asshole’s band, Shellac) but for post-rock as a whole?

    There are so many terrific groups that feature women, or are only women, that have come out of the post-rock tradition: Grouper, Inca Ore, Darwinsbitch, Myrmyr, Pocahaunted, Natural Snow Buildings, Isengrind, Bardo Pond, To Kill a Petty Bourgeoisie, and so on and so forth.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
  101. Maryofsilence wrote:

    This blog brightens my moody days. I want to marry you all. Thank you.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 12:48 pm | Permalink
  102. @ Dadanarchist, wow, fancy meeting someone like you here. My husband and I have done albums by a few of those bands. And I have to agree that a lot of post-rock is not dude music, especially since I always felt that the lack of any voice at all allowed a person of any gender/sex to feel an affiliation with the music.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:10 pm | Permalink
  103. Ethyl wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer — maybe you would notice more of this type of stuff if you raised your own conciousness a bit and stopped referring to women as “females.”

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:16 pm | Permalink
  104. Alden wrote:

    I hear the ‘I don’t usually like girl voices’ from female friends too. It’s odd. I’m a guy who grew up with two older sisters, so my early canon was less Linkin Park and Nirvana and more Spice Girls, Madonna and Alanis Morissette. As I grew up, my intolerance for ‘dudeliness’ (as I typically steer away from douchebags for friends) was matched by my growing love for Tori Amos, Emilie Autumn, Florence and the Machine, Amanda Palmer etc. As I grew up, my older sister (a lover of PJ Harvey and The Pixies) would always mock my ‘girl music’ preferences.

    So the whole ‘girls can’t make good music’ argument puzzling. I’ve found the opposite: I’ve had to actually work to integrate more men into my listening for an equal music experience. Generally, though, I’ve found a bunch more women whose talent blow me away. And for people who don’t think women can do dark music, Emilie Autumn is a complete badass, and deals with a lot of explicitly feminist content.

    (Also, is it just me, or is it women who seem to constantly have to fight their asshole labels? Courtney Love wrote that fantastic piece against record labels, Amanda Palmer just exited an all-out war with hers, and even Tori Amos just got out of being ‘trapped’ twice sucessively by two labels. Do I just hear about the women cause I only pay attention to them, or do women typically get kicked around more by their labels? It seems most musicians I love have had issues like this.)

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:18 pm | Permalink
  105. Ethyl wrote:

    Oh, also @Dadaanarchist:

    This is from Sady upthread:

    “the point of the post is not to identify certain genres AS “dude music” (because, like, duh, where is HEAVY METAL? Where is RAP-ROCK? Where are JAM BANDS? Those are some dudely-ass genres; also, I hate all of them except for some metal?) but to point out how many genres can be.”

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:19 pm | Permalink
  106. Becka wrote:

    This post is so so fantastic! Like I said yesterday on Twitter, I read it once and then read it aloud to lots of head nodding and lol-ing. I thought the JUSTMYOPINION-ism was hilarious and spot on, because really all that is, is a method of completely shutting down a two sided conversation and it drives me crazy. It’s nothing to do with opinion and all to do with not wanting to talk about it. Especially kills me when it’s followed by statements like ‘well, you don’t like country/punk/rap/whatever so what’s the difference?’ Um, the difference (aside from the flawed notion that all those genres aren’t nuanced and complexed with room for liking or appreciating some country music but not others)? Lady Music isn’t actually a genre. Just like Men’s Music isn’t a genre, but it is men making a GIANT variety of different music. I realised you talked about this with the whole dude voices vs. lady voices thing, and that was so spot on, but it is something that makes me so fucking angry because it’s so lazy and OBVIOUS in it’s sexism.

    Anyway, I loved this post so, so much. Thank you!

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 1:37 pm | Permalink
  107. Uncle Ebeneezer wrote:

    Ethyl- I use “female” largely because it includes “girls” in addition to “women.” Also I tend to read alot of scientific blogs that use female/male rather than boys/men/girls/women so it’s partly habit. It’s not really an issue of my consciousness or attitude towards females in any way. If you have a good argument for why maturation should be an excluding factor in this discussion, I’m game to hear it.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 2:15 pm | Permalink
  108. Jenny North wrote:

    Silvana, I get it. As a “lady musician,” I have totally been in these sorts of band situations before and, despite finally meeting many awesome feminist guys who make music, I have still insisted on my latest project being women-only (it really does make a huge fucking difference in terms of attitude and creativity and accessibility to ladies who otherwise wouldn’t rock out). But it does make me sad to see bands like Godspeed get hated on as “dude music” – there are women who perform with Godspeed and I often share rehearsal spaces with them. I think it’s important to recognize that these ladies are making beautiful sweet epic music and playing badass guitar and strings, and being respected for that, as ladies but also just as incredibly hardworking, talented musicians. Calling their songs dude music without qualification hides their badassness and talent further… at the same time, though, it fucking infuriates me that yes, it is “dude music” in how so many guys receive the music and fetishize it and make it exclusive, when this is not the intention of the band. I remember before moving to Montreal, how every dude I knew was like, “OMG Godspeed! Check out all the amazing shit these DUDES are doing! Perhaps you find me attractive for listening to this, however? No? Oh, but you are a LADY and cannot understand this music anyway.” And then I moved here and suddenly realized, “WTF, a lot of this shit is played by super badass ladies.” So, yeah. Le Tigre and tUnE-yArDs, thank god.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 2:17 pm | Permalink
  109. Silvana wrote:

    Oh my god, people, “Dude Music” is not a real category. Not a real thing. Just made it up. For purposes of Jokes and also argument.

    It doesn’t matter that there is this or that band that has women in it and/or is transgressive and doesn’t uphold the status quo! Does not. Matter.

    @Uncle Ebeneezer I wasn’t the one who made the point about music criticism. That was made by several commenters.

    I do find the question of differeing taste between genders quite interesting.

    Great, but I didn’t talk about that in the post. I was actually talking about how my “taste” was disregarded because I was a girl. So I basically have no interesting in saying “men like x, women like y.” Which is why it’s important that DUDE MUSIC IS NOT A REAL THING AND IS NOT MEANT TO MEAN “music that men like.”

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 2:34 pm | Permalink
  110. Sady wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: Your comment got through because I honestly think you’re trying to engage. But you would maybe want to avoid doing THE VERY SAME THING MENTIONED IN THE POST, next time, i.e. categorizing music as “masculine” and “feminine” and then pointing to the female, uh, “exceptions” and either dismissing (Sleater-Kinney) or tokenizing (PJ Harvey) them?

    I have always loved dude rock that is heavy ala Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, TOOL, Deftones etc. And while I see no reason why females can’t make music like that I have yet to see any real success. (I was largely unimpressed with Sleater-Kinney when I saw them at a festival, but it was early and I was pretty hungover.) To my knowledge PJ Harvey is about the only female artist who has nailed the dark/heavy thing in a captivating way.

    Okay, so: Have you EVER FUCKING LISTENED to Bikini Kill? Those girls could rip your face right the fuck off. Poly Styrene? Patti Smith? Babes in Toyland? Early Hole? Tribe 8, L7? These are just the most immediate examples, the ones that pop up into my mind within the space of a second? Even bands I actively dislike, like Kittie, or whatever, can be utilized to disprove your point immediately. OR Sonic Youth, Smashing Pumpkins, the Boredoms, all girl-enabled, all capable of making some loud, noisy music when it suits them. It’s that “in a captivating way” addendum that drives me right up the wall and makes you capable of LITERALLY the thing that Silvana is talking about IN THE POST: Like, you KNOW there are women who do this, but you’re conflating the existence of such women with the fact that you don’t personally like them (and refusing to question why you don’t like them) I love Sleater-Kinney. I love PJ Harvey. They both have albums that go into the rotation on my iPod for days at a time and frequently. And it’s really insulting to them both to see them categorized via your Dudely Mode of Deciding Which Girls Deserve To Be Tokens.

    Likewise, very few males (Jeff Buckley, Elliott Smith) have been able to capture the more feminine style of lilting vocals, pensive (but not too sappy) lyrics etc.

    Sufjan Stevens. Belle and Sebastian. Death Cab for Cutie. None of these are favorites of mine, but they’ve all put their twee lilting little hearts out there to a greater extent than most of the female musicians I could come up with ever have or will. Sufjan Stevens has some of the lushest, twee-est, most glockenspiel-and-banjo-y instrumentation you’ll ever hear. (And yet, unlike every other woman with even vaguely lush or orchestral arrangements, he never gets compared to Kate fucking Bush!) I’m also noticing that both of the dudes you’ve listed as “feminine” are, in fact, high tenors. Like, that might be the only thing they actually have in common. Are you seriously just listing things as “feminine” because the voices involved are relatively high-pitched?

    harder aggressive music seems more honest coming from a bag of testoserone (male) and music that is more tender tends to seem more honest coming from a female.

    And here’s where it just gets fucking sexist! So sexist! So sexist I can’t even START to explain! But, here’s a hint: There have been two ladies involved heavily in this comment thread. One runs the site, and one wrote the post. Both share certain traits, in their writing. People tend to point those traits out to them, in displeased tones. Can you name the traits? Here’s a hint: They do not rhyme with “blender.” They do, however, tend to rhyme with “blonest,” “blarder,” and “blaggressive.” Start there, and begin to unravel that whole “not every member of a gender has the exact same behavioral traits and therefore should not be stereotyped along those lines” puzzle.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 2:57 pm | Permalink
  111. Uncle Ebeneezer wrote:

    Silv, my bad for criss-crossing comments with your post. Thanx for the follow-up.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:02 pm | Permalink
  112. Silvana wrote:

    I should note that my last comment was not directed at Jenny North, with whom I agree.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:02 pm | Permalink
  113. Ethyl wrote:

    “I use “female” largely because it includes “girls” in addition to “women.” Also I tend to read alot of scientific blogs that use female/male rather than boys/men/girls/women so it’s partly habit. It’s not really an issue of my consciousness or attitude towards females in any way. If you have a good argument for why maturation should be an excluding factor in this discussion, I’m game to hear it.”

    OMFG.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:05 pm | Permalink
  114. I thought Uncle Ebeneezer was trying (very clumsily) to say that people in general have been socialized to believe that men who rock hard and women who sing pretty are more authentic because they are fulfilling their expected roles, rather than that’s the way he feels it should be.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:11 pm | Permalink
  115. Miss Smog wrote:

    Awww drat!!!! I read this post yesterday as soon as it came out, read the three comments it had and thought “Yes! This is so so great!!! How could this attract Comment Drama?” then come back today and of course there was Comment Drama and I regret not lurking TBD all day yesterday :(

    I guess I just want to add, beyond “Silvana you are amazing and a genius” is an experience I’ve been having recently: I have a weekly (pirate) radio show based outta Tucson AZ and there are three fem/gender issue shows, one of which is mine, and through the course of the week, I’ll discuss with the Boyfriend his opinions on what I’m picking or what my topic is. And quite often, he will try to suggest a band that I perhaps maybe like but is totally irrelevant to the show. And with every suggestion, I very very much enjoy asking him to please defend that band and point out to me exactly what said band contributes on the gender front. There are only very few that make the cut. It happens most often with Dude Music but I recently had to tell him “NO! NO KAREN O!!!! NONO!” It’s a lot of responsibility.

    Cheers to you Silvana, for being brave and smart, and cheers to Sady for being awesome and having awesome guest posters!!!!!!! Thank you!
    Miss Smog

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:14 pm | Permalink
  116. Ethyl wrote:

    @Thewhatifgirl — Maybe but I lose interest in people who use dehumanizing language and then defend it with a dogwhistle to “science’ and “rationality,” which are oh-so-manly in contrast to our hysterical ladyness, and who furthermore creates a total strawperson to kick around.

    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/03/on-being-woman-not-female.html

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:19 pm | Permalink
  117. ozymandias wrote:

    @Farore: OMG I love QC! Even though like half the time I don’t know what bands they’re talking about. You’re right, though, definitely passes the Bechdel Test. And during the arc where they had the band, I’m pretty sure the women rocked out as hard as the dudes.

    (This thread is giving me a ton of new music to listen to. Jeez.)

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 3:58 pm | Permalink
  118. Uncle Ebeneezer wrote:

    WhatIf- that is much closer to what I was trying to say (albeit clumsily.) I’ll try to expand/clarify more tonight.

    Ethyl, I tend to use the word “female” when discussing gender issues. I don’t think about it first, it just happens to be the word I usually choose. My explanation to you was intended more as an answer to “why DO I always use that phrase?” But the reason I gave rings true to the way I think, the interests I have etc. as a plausible explanation for ME habitually choosing it. I would add that it could just be the fact that it is a measure of efficiency since all women and all girls are females. You can replace female with woman/women in my post and I don’t think it makes any difference in the point I was trying to make or in my intentions. And it’s not meant to be any kind of dog-whistle at all.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 4:10 pm | Permalink
  119. @ Ethyl, I had not seen that before. Thanks.

    @ Uncle Ebeneezer, really, you might want to just stop while you’re (sort of) ahead.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
  120. K wrote:

    Oh my god, so much love for this! Part of me is like 100+ comments?! There’s no way she’ll ever get to/read mine, but I have faith!

    My dad bought me a guitar for Christmas the year I turned 12. It was his Great Secret Hope that I would learn to play and we could have a shared love of guitar as our father/daughter thing. My dad constantly pushed me to listen to music made by women and made me aware of female musicians who were not bass players — to him, it was really important that I know about people like Chrissie Hynde so that I could see someone else who was also a woman (and, more specifically to my experience, grew up in a low-income, post-industrial Ohio city) — but I never really got into playing — I kept thinking, “I’m bad at this!” and, more specifically, “I’m bad at this BECAUSE I’M A GIRL.”

    Have you ever seen the movie Linda, Linda, Linda? It’s a Japanese film about four high school girls getting ready for a performance in a musical showcase and they’re in this rock band together and it has all this amazing, inspiring footage of them practicing and performing, but the image that stays with me the most is this scene where one of the guitar players falls asleep and has a dream that her boyfriend (who is, of course, also a guitar player) gives her a box and inside those box are GIANT MAN HANDS THAT SHE CAN WEAR OVER HER OWN and he tells her something like, “Now your hands aren’t too small for the guitar,” which is HOW I HAVE ALWAYS FELT, like I seriously, biologically NEED GIANT MAN HANDS so that I can play the guitar and that my tiny, girlish ones just can’t handle it, which is absurd.

    Also, the Le Tigre shows I saw in high school were TRANSCENDENT experiences for me. & you know what? When it comes to dude music, Le Tigre said it best: “Mediocrity rules, man.”

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 5:29 pm | Permalink
  121. Ethyl wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer –

    That’s nice. Except I really don’t give a shit what your reasons are. I told you it’s dehumanizing and that I found your appeal to “butbutbut I usually read SCIENCE blogs” to be a suspiciously MRA-esque dogwhistle, and you STILL think it’s ok to continue to defend your position. It’s not. Calling human women “females” (and you might want to reconsider your use of the word “girls” there, too) is dehumanizing. Stop. It.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 5:53 pm | Permalink
  122. minna wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer To my knowledge PJ Harvey is about the only female artist who has nailed the dark/heavy thing in a captivating way.

    Garbage/Angelspit? Poe? Ladytron? Hole? Kristeen Young? And that’s off the top of my head without touching goth or metal?

    If you can’t find more than one female artist who in the dark alternative genres that you like, you aren’t looking hard enough.

    Sorry if I seem harsh,

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 6:40 pm | Permalink
  123. minna wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer To my knowledge PJ Harvey is about the only female artist who has nailed the dark/heavy thing in a captivating way.

    Garbage/Angelspit? Poe? Ladytron? Hole? Kristeen Young? And that’s off the top of my head without touching goth or metal?

    If you can’t find more than one female artist in the dark alternative genres that you like, you aren’t looking hard enough.

    Sorry if I seem harsh, but this is something I’ve been arguing with Dudely Types since I was about eighteen, and it has never been true.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 6:43 pm | Permalink
  124. Erin wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer

    Generally on feminist blogs, people prefer the use of the terms ‘women’ or ‘women and girls,’ depending on what makes the most sense for what you are trying to say.

    Just some FYI for future conversations in this space and possible other spaces you may comment on.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:18 pm | Permalink
  125. ADF wrote:

    One thing country music has always been relatively good at is a sense of the part women had in forming the very foundations of the genre. It is absolutely impossible to write the history of country music without including Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton and others (like Tammy Wynette and Tanya Tucker to a degree). This is less true now but country music as a whole has been dying since the mid seventies anyway.

    Anyway, yeah this is all true. I’m a guy who was a mediocre bassist in a few bands in college. I was in this sort of bluesy-soul band where our trumpet player, drummer and trombonist were all women (with the drummer singing on some songs.) Me and the other guys in the band always had a lot of respect for them. Our trumpet player is still one of the most amazing songwriters I’ve ever worked with. But anyone we played with always look at us very suspiciously, especially at our drummer wondering why we went that way since all girl drummers obviously suck and we were clearly just doing it for attention(like Meg White, apparently?)

    These of course being the same dudes who would sing about how sensitive they were and how no girls would treat them right.

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:25 pm | Permalink
  126. ADF wrote:

    Addendum: In my first paragraph what I meant was that the country music culture feels that women don’t play as bug a part in contemporary country music, not that there are no talented women. Again, there isn’t much modern country worth listening to but there are as many worthwhile women as men (lets say this list is Dixie Chicks, Brad Paisley, … that might be it. Man country music has sucked lately.)

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:28 pm | Permalink
  127. Erin wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer follow-up

    And though on this blog, using the words ‘lady’ and ‘dude’ are pretty common, it is pretty tongue in cheek, and I think someone who is new to feminism could get into commenting trouble if they tried it too soon…

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 at 8:46 pm | Permalink
  128. Silvana wrote:

    Now your hands aren’t too small for the guitar,” which is HOW I HAVE ALWAYS FELT, like I seriously, biologically NEED GIANT MAN HANDS so that I can play the guitar and that my tiny, girlish ones just can’t handle it, which is absurd.

    Oh my god, K. First of all, OF COURSE I READ YOUR COMMENT. I read them all. Reading and being involved with comments is a huge part of my blogger ethos.

    Second of all. Your anecdote just lodged free a memory that I had COMPLETELY REPRESSED.

    So, after screwing around with the guitar off and on since like age 12, I decided to actually take a formal guitar class in college. It was fine, it was fun, blahdeblah.

    Halfway through the semester I stayed after class to talk to the professor about some chords I was having trouble with, wondering if my form or something was the problem.

    Wherein he told me that I was having trouble because 1) my fingers were too small, 2) my arms were too short, and 3) my tits were too big (to hold the guitar close enough to my body).

    That’s right, guys. MY TITS WERE LITERALLY INTERFERING WITH MY GUITAR PLAYING.

    Jesus. I guess I was so humiliated that I repressed the memory. Not only because WTF, but also because JESUS GUITAR PLAYER TEACHER IN A UNIVERSITY SETTING do you really need to comment on my tits?

    When what he really could have said, WHICH WAS THE TRUTH, was “those chords are kinda hard and you just need to practice more. Also, get a guitar strap and use it.”

    Hate.

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 8:45 am | Permalink
  129. c wrote:

    I forever consider my self super-lucky that my parents’ musical taste went like: John Denver, Donna Summer, Bread, Heart, Perry Como, Pat Benatar, Roger Whittaker, Joan Jett, et alia.

    I ALWAYS knew women rock.

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 10:03 am | Permalink
  130. K wrote:

    @Silvana

    Wherein he told me that I was having trouble because 1) my fingers were too small, 2) my arms were too short, and 3) my tits were too big (to hold the guitar close enough to my body).

    These are all things I’ve been told about my playing &, in some ways, I can see where they come from (i.e. I do play with my guitar much higher up on my body than a lot of guys I know, because I do have shorter arms), BUT what drives me crazy is that these things are often represented as insurmountable obstacles. I was never told, “Hey, maybe try positioning your hand like this to increase the reach of your fingers,” or anything like that. It was always like YOU ARE YOUR BODY, YOU CAN’T CHANGE YOUR BODY which really pushed me away from playing the guitar and towards playing the bass (and while there’s not anything inherently wrong with playing the bass, I do think that the construct of the female bass player & why we have the assumption that girls can/should play bass are things worth exploring.)

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 10:27 am | Permalink
  131. Trish wrote:

    OMG! I was married to someone who claimed to be a feminist. He never listened to any of my music. The Heartless Bastards, Fiona Apple, all of it he hated. He just didn’t like women’s voice. What a freaking eureka moment to read this. I always despised him for this, but could never put my finger on it. We aregued about this for christ sake! THANK YOU! I’m so glad I’m not with that douche anymore.

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
  132. Caitiecat wrote:

    Very well written, Silvana, bravissima! I hope you get to make lots of awesome music. :)

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 1:42 pm | Permalink
  133. Farore wrote:

    @UncleEbeneezer

    “I would add that it could just be the fact that it is a measure of efficiency since all women and all girls are females.”

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT?!?!

    hi there cissexism, what a lovely time to raise your gorgeous head.

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 4:31 pm | Permalink
  134. dadanarchist wrote:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer To my knowledge PJ Harvey is about the only female artist who has nailed the dark/heavy thing in a captivating way.

    What about Nico? Kate Bush? Siouxsie? And you don’t get darker/more dread-inducing than Jehna Wilhelm from To Kill a Petty Bourgeoisie…

    @ Silvana: Oh my god, people, “Dude Music” is not a real category. Not a real thing. Just made it up. For purposes of Jokes and also argument.

    I meant category as in a critical idea, in the same way Joan Scott meant it in her essay, “Gender, a Useful Category of Historical Analyis”: a developed idea used for critical and analytic purposes. I think, Silvana, this is an interesting idea worthy of greater exploration.

    @Ethyl: Oh, also @Dadaanarchist: This is from Sady upthread

    Thanks, I missed that on my first read-through… I like her points and they go a long way to answering my question…

    Silvana: if I were to use this in my popular culture class, would you be adverse? Always looking for good music writing by women (lack of female critics – or rather, a lack of female critics in well-established critical music publications – is a huge, huge, huge problem…)

    Interesting post, interesting thread…

    h/t to Yglesias and Ackermann

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 4:41 pm | Permalink
  135. JMS wrote:

    “I don’t like women’s singing voices” is not “just personal preference.” There is no one “singing voice” that is “female.”

    I mean, anyone who says “I don’t like women’s singing voices because they’re high and piercing” who also listens to Neil Young is a hypocrite. Yeah, Neil Young is so deep and resonant, while Nina Simone is so high and piercing.

    “I prefer low voices to high ones” might be a gender-neutral statement; after all, there are many prominent male artists with high voices and many prominent female artists with low voices.

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 7:26 pm | Permalink
  136. jennygadget wrote:

    “I would add that it could just be the fact that it is a measure of efficiency since all women and all girls are females.”

    And yet…NOT. As clearly, not all females are human.

    Also, I’m increasingly annoyed with the defense of the use of the word “females” that pretends it’s all about being inclusive towards children.

    I mean, really. The current topic of discussion is music and musicians and musical talent and skill. More importantly, much of it has been about specific *professional* artists and bands. Unless you are talking about rock camps for girls or how music is taught in schools or how these attitudes effect *younger* aspiring musicians, whytf would you feel the need to go out of your way to include children in the discussion?

    (I do not care if any of said artists started making money playing music as older teens. At that point, they are still essentially engaging in something that is generally considered to be mature behavior; making a point of referring to them as children because they are not yet 18 is both insulting and beside the point.)

    Friday, April 16, 2010 at 9:16 pm | Permalink
  137. Farore wrote:

    God, I hate to double-comment but I just cannot get my brain around the SHEER STAGGERING AMOUNT OF IGNORANCE in that one comment. SOMEONE HELP, MY BRAIN IS SPLODE.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 1:46 am | Permalink
  138. ellie wrote:

    If you have a good argument for why maturation should be an excluding factor in this discussion, I’m game to hear it.

    *sigh* Yes, time to defend and explain, AGAIN, in perpetuity. No simple “Gee, sorry, I didn’t know that” from super-feminist Uncle Ebenezer, oh no. Irony writ large.

    Anyway, thanks for the wonderful post, Silvana.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 2:08 am | Permalink
  139. sacundim wrote:

    Kristina@4: the flipside of the exclusion of women from articles like that about the “greatest guitarists of all time” is the exclusion of non-Western cultures. To play dumb for a bit, the folks who write these lists certainly haven’t heard all the guitarists of all time, so how do they know there isn’t some Congolese guitarist that’s better than Mr. 100, Kim Thayil?

    A bit more seriously, this is just straightforward white privilege: most of the world’s music is excluded right off the bat from the running, because the people who these lists are for have the privilege of portraying their experience as if it was universal.

    Ali Farka Touré makes it into the list probably only because he’s the one African guitarist the authors can name, not because they sat down and deliberated on how good he was compared to other African guitarists.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 3:28 am | Permalink
  140. missdk wrote:

    @FARORE I thought the exact same thing! We should recommend Ebeneezer an LGBT blog to get “educated” at (read: ripped a new one).

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 4:45 am | Permalink
  141. Lotte wrote:

    Thank you so, so much for writing this. I also passed it on to my friend and ex-bandmate Sarah, as she likes a lot of underground stuff that some might consider ‘dude music’ – Earth, Daniel Johnston, Fucked Up etc. – and has encountered no end of men treating her like some oddity (it doesn’t help that she’s blonde and very attractive). The worst is when she brings her boyfriend and people talk to him and ignore her cos they assume she’s just there for the ride. Because of course a GURL couldn’t like that sort of music.

    My best friend is a massive Tool fan. I like them too, and also a lot of metal / nu-metal stuff – Deftones, Fear Factory, Machine Head etc. It’s disheartening how utterly sexist male metal fans can be – it’s like we’re only groupies or hot female singers, and most of the time you’ll only see women in metal magazines in a ‘Women in Rock’ or ‘Sex’ special. I read a review of Kittie recently where some guy complained about ‘bitches playing men’s music’. WTF? Who said metal is only for men? There is no such thing as men’s music. There shouldn’t be. Music is for everyone.

    And I LOVED Sleater-Kinney and was so sad when they split. Seeing an immensely talented all-female band who were praised in indie circles was so refreshing for me, and an inspiration too. Courtney Love and Kathleen Hanna and Cerys Matthews all got me through my teenage years. They were my musical role models.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 1:51 pm | Permalink
  142. Erin wrote:

    I kinda disappointed with how most people reacted to Uncle Ebeneezer. As Sady said, he seems like he is honestly trying to engage. I feel like we are becoming unnecessarily mean on this site. Maybe it has just been a unique week, and everyone is on the defensive?

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 2:11 pm | Permalink
  143. Silvana wrote:

    @Dadanarchist: Silvana: if I were to use this in my popular culture class, would you be adverse?

    Go ahead.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 2:28 pm | Permalink
  144. Farore wrote:

    @MissDK: What, you mean like http://tinyurl.com/yz9r29h ?

    @Erin: See, the thing is, in his FIRST comment he seemed genuinely interested in trying to engage. It was the following comments, when people were like ‘dude, female is not the correct term here’ and he was like ‘BUT BUT SCIENCE AND STUFF, ALSO CISSEXISM OUT THE ARSE’ that we started getting irritable, because it’s offensive, ridiculous, and he is at a feminist blog: if the other commenters tell you that you have fucked up, you apologize and listen and go educate yourself. You don’t go on and on about why you didn’t fuck up, actually, because: you did. Arguing the point just makes you seem like a privilege-swinging douchevat.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 3:59 pm | Permalink
  145. phoenix wrote:

    @XENU01 #48

    >>>> I have this theory that “pop” equals lady-people and “rap” equals black people >>>

    Don’t forget “disco” equals gay people and translady-people, therefore we must protect ourselves by buying “DISCO SUCKS” buttons and burning disco records.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
  146. Lindsay wrote:

    Late like a motherfucker, but this hit home SO freaking hard for me. I remember when I was 19 and dating a music douchebag (who was too lazy and stoned to actually start a band, so he settled for talking shit about other people’s) and he told me that he just didn’t think women’s voices were as good as men’s. And I started crying. I mean, he was totally baffled, but I was so upset and I knew he would never in a million years be able to understand why. Also, I was and am a much better singer than him.

    Saturday, April 17, 2010 at 10:20 pm | Permalink
  147. Lindsay wrote:

    As someone involved in my local music scene, i understand what it’s like to be constantly undermined by dudes in regards to EVERYTHING music, whether it be what album from a certain band is worth listening to or whether a band is worth listening to at all. Thanks for writing this and recognizing that to be a woman in music can be really fucking hard. You seriously rule.

    Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 12:51 pm | Permalink
  148. redredrobin wrote:

    I too was in an all-female band once upon a time, and I remember when I bought my 1st electric guitar (a 2nd-hand Gibson SG Special) and the guys in the music store didn’t want to sell it to me. I was 17 and working a part-time job and I’d been playing since I was 11. First they showed me a crappy little one-pick-up job and tried to convince me I really wanted that one instead. (Some guy friend must’ve wanted the SG.) Then they said it was OK if I had the SG, “Someone’ll teach you to play it.”
    Most of you have never heard of Fanny. Check them out. I got to meet June Millington, their lead guitarist. It was a revelation to hear them play the Beatles’ “Hey Bulldog”, guitar solos and all. They recorded an album @ Abbey Road and backed Barbra Streisand on “Stoney End”. This probably sounds like the Dark Ages, but ladies, they were fighting the same battles you’re talking about.
    As for the comments about female comedians: it’s pretty much the same there, too. Cause ya know, women just aren’t funny.

    Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 12:53 pm | Permalink
  149. ellie wrote:

    I feel like we are becoming unnecessarily mean on this site. Maybe it has just been a unique week, and everyone is on the defensive?

    Well, our cycles are all in sync, ya know.

    Good grief. The guy mansplained all over the thread about how right he was and basically said if we could present a proper case, he’d consider calling women what they want to be called. Like I said, eye-roh-nee.

    Last I’ll say on the subject. /derail

    Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Permalink
  150. Anna C. wrote:

    Hey, don’t diss prog rock. What of Tori Amos, Bjork, Sonic Youth, Throwing Muses, and many other female artists/bands who do weird proggy stuff? Are they exempt from criticism because of their gender? Carrie Brownstein, of the aforementioned Sleater-Kinney, is quite accomplished on the guitar and has written parts into the band’s songs to show off her skills. Is this kind of display an extension of the “dude rock” mentality?

    Not to mention the fact that, like, a zillion bands with women in them are influenced by great male-dominated bands like Joy Division, Gang of Four, and the Ramones. Restricting onesself to music made exclusively by women is a bad move for a music lover, and especially a musician.

    I regret that indie rock, on the whole, is a gigantic sausage fest, and that the scene sometimes alienates women who play it. It’s hard to go to shows to meet other musicians and end up surrounded by men talking over my head about their guitar pedal boards. And I know it gets much worse than that. But it’s not fair to diss entire musical genres because they are male-dominated. Music ultimately isn’t about gender or politics: it’s about the art.

    Le Tigre are okay, but I think Bikini Kill rocked harder.

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 2:19 am | Permalink
  151. Helen wrote:

    Memories of playing drums with the band I was in in the 1980s, doing a crappy gig in a really, really horrible hotel which was packed with testosterone, and a young Dude who was surely only just legal drinking age swaying in front of the stage (swaying drunkenly, I mean, not in ecstasy) and shouting “You, you can’t do that!”

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 8:15 am | Permalink
  152. Laura wrote:

    “My personal favorite is ‘I just don’t like women’s voices.’”

    I hear that ALL the time–unfortunately, I spend a lot of time on male-dominated music message boards. I heard it today, as a matter of fact! From people that have otherwise broad and excellent taste in music. Perhaps you’re just too small-minded, Mr. Music Opinionator (and too small-something-else, if I may stoop to that level for a second).

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 10:05 am | Permalink
  153. LisaCharly wrote:

    Yes yes YES to this post times a thousand. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that crap from people, as a girl who’s very much into music. “All women sound alike” – yes, because there is no difference between the voices of PJ Harvey, Lykke Li and Aretha Franklin. “Women don’t write music, they write lyrics” – lolwhut Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Tori Amos? “It all sounds like Kate Bush”, as if Kate Bush is the ONLY woman EVER to make vaguely rock-ish music. “Girls are too whiney” – and Linkin Park is…? “she didn’t write that song, the guitarist/male rocker she was dating did (especially if she was Courtney Love)” Aaaaargh.

    That said, someone mentioned Mindless Self Indulgence above as an example of a band with female members but sexist lyrics – MSI’s lyrics are satirical, often trying to point out the sexism and homophobia in rock and rap music. The song cited, “Bitches”, is a pisstake on misogynistic rap music about how women are silly billies who only want some good hard cock. One of the other songs from that record, “Faggot”, is am incredibly empowering song about being “found out” as gay. Their songs don’t always make their satire clear enough and miss the intended mark, but I think they fall into a far different category than those attempting to uphold the patriarchal status quo. Sometimesthey end up inadvertently supporting it, but those are attempts to subvert and mock it that misfire.

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 11:56 am | Permalink
  154. Kat wrote:

    Oh, wow, thanks for this. I’ve been in bands since I was in high school and I felt like you were writing from my brain. Luckily the band I’m in now isn’t SO much like this, at least a couple of us consider ourselves feminists. I would love to be in a band with another woman at some point, I’ve only ever played with dudes. And yeah, my husband, and reason I started playing in bands, used to say “I just don’t like women’s voices.” Luckily he has grown up and doesn’t think like that anymore. Dudes that think like that do need to grow the fuck up. Much love. <3 Kat

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 12:12 pm | Permalink
  155. Gesine wrote:

    Yesterday I played a reunion gig, womens’ rock band, mostly covers, last time we played together was around 1991. I play keyboards, using a good old DX7 for these kinds of gigs; played Hammond B3 for 12 years (still have her; no longer have the people to move her!!). I’ve got the best B3 patches you can have on a DX7, got years ago from a guy who designed them & loved B3s.

    Anyhow, we’re doing soundcheck at this club, there will be 3 bands, 2 that are more country than our rock band. Soundguy wants to run me thru direct box, OK. Wants me to turn my amp very low, OK if you put keyboard in monitor. I play him some rhodosonic patch, then tell him OK I’m going to be playing a lot of Hammond B3 type stuff, and of course I use a volume pedal, so my volume will be all over the map.

    There’s this pause. He tells me, “You need to not change your volume.” I said, I use a volume pedal, my volume will be all over the place, here’s an example. We were actually playing “Hush”, by Deep Purple, and I was doing a long really out-there organ solo, so I played a measure like that. He just stared at me.

    So in the gig, I had real trouble hearing myself — and I’ve played in a number of rock bands, live sound is always an issue, especially when you play keyboards and the typical attitude is “if you have the keyboards anywhere near the guitars in volume level, we will say you are playing too deafeningly loud”. I haven’t listened to the tape yet. I didn’t want to turn up my amp, for stage sound, since we had less experienced band members, we’d not all played together before (this was reunion of several iterations of a band), and they were very nervous about on-stage sound.

    Guitar friend of mine in audience, who played in bands with me for 10 years, loves the B3, said the house mix wasn’t too bad (except for bass and drums were very high in mix, which is not “the way it always must be”, but “this is ONE possible way to mix live sound”)(we’d gotten the sound guy to greatly lower how he was doing bass & drums, but not enough).

    I do B3 technique (roars, screams, big glisses, “wow!”s, etc., it’s very messy).

    So, if I play at that club again, I’ll request that we either run our own sound, or not use that sound guy! At reahearsals, we had a guy sitting in for some songs on bass, who works as a sound guy, and he “got” our sound much more (and yeah, of course rehearsals aren’t gigs). Years ago, a couple bands I was in often played a club in Sierra Madre, and the house had 2 possible sound guys; I brought the B3 to those gigs for both bands. After a couple go-rounds, my bands and I said, we’ll play on the nights X sound guy is there, but not on the nights Y sound guy is there, and that’s what we did. The Y sound guy told me “you have to compress your sound”. I’m going, this is a Hammond B3, they by their nature do not fit in some small category, they are dragons!

    I call my self a radical feminist, and even at age 58 it’s hard to say “I want my monitor volume to be higher”. Though I do it! And we can make sure we support other band members in this too.
    One thing to keep in mind, all you guitarists out there, is, please don’t do the same oppression to keyboardists, that male musicians do to you! Seriously, this has happened in a number of women-only bands I’ve been in — oh, the guitars can be loud! but Goddess forbid the keyboard makes any serious noise! This is “internalized self oppression”, if I recall the terms right.

    So, we had a lot of fun at the gig! after all that! and we’re planning on playing again this summer.

    Gesine
    who still has “Hush” running through her mind

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 2:33 pm | Permalink
  156. Jules wrote:

    I want to distribute this to everyone I know, or paint it on a wall, or put it on a tshirt.

    You said it all!

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 5:23 pm | Permalink
  157. kc wrote:

    GIANT. SQUID.

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 5:40 pm | Permalink
  158. michael wrote:

    dude, le tigre fucking rock. it sounds like you knew too many douchey guys.

    also: heart

    Monday, April 19, 2010 at 7:55 pm | Permalink
  159. All I know is it was my sister who turned me on to Faith No More, and I was thrilled when she liked Rush as much as I did. So there are exceptions.

    I love women’s voices, there just aren’t enough women doing prog rock, and there need to be more, in my opinion.

    Tuesday, April 20, 2010 at 5:53 pm | Permalink
  160. @K: re: Big hands/small hands

    I have tiny hands – mutant hands with little fingers that stop short of the second joint on my ring fingers. I never learned to play guitar because it physically hurt me, so I picked up mandolin instead. And wow, I got some flack for that – I never had any idea that mandolin was a dude instrument! Especially since one of the best bouzouki players I’ve ever heard is Beth Patterson.

    I like Kate Bush – she was my introduction to Girls Who Rock – but I got so tired of all the guys that said she just screeched and they hated her voice. Bleh.

    This article touched a deep, deep chord in many of us, and it speaks a monumental truth: Dudes are afraid of women being better than them, so they have to keep them out.

    Wednesday, April 21, 2010 at 9:29 am | Permalink
  161. Charlie H. wrote:

    Love this post. It’s been open on my laptop for three days now and I’ve been working through the comments. As a guy in a band, SeanH’s comment (#84) resonated with me a bit. I obviously don’t personally confront many of the issues that have been raised here, and I am absolutely not trying to derail or make this about Me and My Male Experience in any way, but it’s frustrating to be in a band, playing what should be non-dude music, and still to look out into the audience and see nothing but dudes.

    The indie club rock scene here in Boston is a sausage fest, I’ve come to realize; it doesn’t matter so much who you are, or what style of rock music you play, how good you are, or anything. It just feels like the average young person coming out to local rock shows is male, and more specifically, that certain breed of cool sexist hipster male college student we all know, and it is these people, not necessarily the bands, who turn normal club gigs into Shows of Dude Power Solidarity. I would really, really like them to stop.

    Which isn’t to say the local bands don’t contribute to the situation, since they totally do. I just don’t personally understand why a band would even want their fan base to be dominated by men, many of whom are self-centered and abrasive to boot. I don’t get it. I mean, I get it… but I don’t get it.

    Wednesday, April 21, 2010 at 2:13 pm | Permalink
  162. Julianne wrote:

    This post really resonated with me. I used to actually be one of those people who thought women’s voices weren’t as interesting/whatever as men’s, but that was because I’d only really listened to pop, I think. Having done the research, now I mostly listen to female musicians. You should check out the book “Frock Rock” by Mavis Bayton, it’s basically a comprehensive detailed list of all the difficulties women face in the music industry. I can’t think of anything that it leaves out. It’s accessible and entertaining and needs to be read by more people, not just those doing musicology courses.

    Wednesday, April 21, 2010 at 8:37 pm | Permalink
  163. Mike Cane wrote:

    >>>My personal favorite is “I just don’t like women’s voices.”

    Wow, this must be a generational thing. Hell, when I grew up, there was Connie Francis, Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross, Lulu, Petula Clark, and more. Top 40. It was never a man vs. woman thing in music. It was MUSIC.

    But I think I know what you mean by “dude” music. Because I hate that shit.

    Thursday, April 22, 2010 at 4:53 pm | Permalink
  164. Mike Cane wrote:

    Oh, and let me add: Thanks for that Le Tigre clip. Damn, they kick ass!

    Thursday, April 22, 2010 at 4:54 pm | Permalink
  165. flynnzo wrote:

    Just want to chime in and say this is what drives me crazy about Sirius. I could listen to the rock stations for days and never hear anybody who speaks to me.

    Also, although System of a Down bored me to tears, Halestorm opened for them and they might be the best thing ever in the whole world. Lady fronted, guy backed, total awesomeness. She kicked ass. I bought the album the next day.

    Thursday, April 22, 2010 at 10:03 pm | Permalink
  166. @ Charlie H: There are (at least) two things you can do to change that.

    One – Tell all the women who want to to come to the front before you start. Women are usually much shorter than men and, in my shortie experience, usually have men deciding that, oh, no one is using this space, there’s just a girl watching the band so it won’t matter if I stand directly in front of her so that she gets to look at my shoulder blades for the entire show.

    Two, make sure the audience knows that you won’t put up with gropers. You can do that as the band on stage and as just another member of the audience. My friends and I have been sexually assaulted more at shows than we have been on crowded public transportation.

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 12:21 am | Permalink
  167. Akkanash wrote:

    I’d just like to take a few lines to promote my favourite all-woman band:

    The Robots In Disguise!

    If you haven’t listened to them before, I recommend starting with Girl (“Girl – it’s not a dirty word!”). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES672S-XdJ0

    TheWhatIfGirl: “creepy stuff from guys who said they liked a band but, upon further explication, clearly were more interested in the fantasy that the woman might graciously decide to sleep with the guy just because he liked her music.”

    You have just described a groupie! (Or the stereotypical concept of one – I have a very different personal concept of groupies, which is actually quite positive.) Men like this need to be consistently referred to as “groupies” preferably to their faces/in hearing distance.

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 6:28 am | Permalink
  168. Crys T wrote:

    I find the way this shit cycles back around every generation depressing. I’m 46, so to me, the post-Nirvana period doesn’t seem all that long ago. And it seemed that every fucking band that was getting attention was either all-women or women-dominated: The Breeders, Belly, Hole, L7, Babes in Toyland, Lush, Elastica, Echobelly. And not only did these bands have street cred, but they were all topping the charts. Any douchey Dudebro saying, “Women can’t rock” would’ve been laughed out of town.

    God, I miss that time.

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 3:32 pm | Permalink
  169. Crys T wrote:

    And sorry for the double posting, but c’mon everyone: doesn’t ANYONE remember Frightwig????

    And I can’t believe I left Luscious Jackson and the Lunachicks out of my previous comment.

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 3:33 pm | Permalink
  170. Jacquie wrote:

    I think we’re twins!

    http://www.soundsgoodink.com/featured/her-singing-is-sick

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Permalink
  171. Robert wrote:

    Part of this reminded me of something I read in an interview with the Broun Fellinis, to the effect of ‘if we got to a gig and the audience was all male, we’d probably do a twenty minute set and leave.’ They didn’t care for the experience, it seems. I understand a bit more about that now, I think.

    Also, I tend not to listen to much rock, so don’t know much about it. My thirteen year old son likes Linkin Park and the DJ Tiesto, so perhaps I should find some Le Tigre for him to sample.

    When I read the ‘I don’t like women’s voices’ line, my first reaction was ‘so that’s why you don’t listen to them!’ but I don’t know any dudes like that, so if you like the comeback, you are welcome to use it. If, not, no problem.

    Friday, April 23, 2010 at 10:58 pm | Permalink
  172. Y’all might have better luck in your quest for badass female musicians if you forgot about indie rock and listened to classical. There’s Martha Argerich, Ingrid Fliter, Hilary Hahn, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Alicia de Larrocha, Mitsuko Uchida, Hélène Grimaud, Wanda Landowska, not to mention the countless flutists, clarinetists or percussionists in orchestras worldwide. Why stick to a genre where even the famous players barely know how to handle their instrument?

    Saturday, April 24, 2010 at 2:01 pm | Permalink
  173. Cassandra wrote:

    this makes me want to learn to play an instrument, start a band, and kick some ass. i listen to a ton of indie and 99% of it is man-made. sadly. although i do think good music is just good music, regardless of who creates it, it would be nice to have some more female musicians in the indie rock arena.

    Saturday, April 24, 2010 at 3:50 pm | Permalink
  174. M.A. wrote:

    oh thank you for this post and all the awesome comments! I love Luscious Jackson, by the way whoever just mentioned them <3

    Saturday, April 24, 2010 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
  175. Emma wrote:

    As a teenager I was deeply ridiculed for my music choices (mostly Tori Amos) and the music I played myself, by the guy friends I hung out with. I have recently thought this was pretty deeply misogynistic but this post just clarifies so much for me. SO MUCH. You ladies and your lady business are awesome.

    Saturday, April 24, 2010 at 10:34 pm | Permalink
  176. Adam wrote:

    this makes me want to learn to play an instrument, start a band, and kick some ass. i listen to a ton of indie and 99% of it is man-made. sadly. although i do think good music is just good music, regardless of who creates it, it would be nice to have some more female musicians in the indie rock arena.

    Saturday, April 24, 2010 at 11:03 pm | Permalink
  177. Patrick wrote:

    I find the way this shit cycles back around every generation depressing. I’m 46, so to me, the post-Nirvana period doesn’t seem all that long ago. And it seemed that every fucking band that was getting attention was either all-women or women-dominated: The Breeders, Belly, Hole, L7, Babes in Toyland, Lush, Elastica, Echobelly. And not only did these bands have street cred, but they were all topping the charts. Any douchey Dudebro saying, “Women can’t rock” would’ve been laughed out of town.

    God, I miss that time.

    Monday, April 26, 2010 at 9:27 am | Permalink
  178. Omen wrote:

    According to the article, nothing was hacked. It was a viral scheme. This isn’t hacking, its people voting.

    Monday, April 26, 2010 at 1:12 pm | Permalink
  179. CassieC wrote:

    Pretty sure the thread has gone dormant, but didn’t want to leave Marco and Adam/Cassandra unanswered.

    The point of this post is NOT the dearth of awesome women in indie music. THERE ARE LOTS OF AWESOME WOMEN IN INDIE MUSIC. If 99% of your listening is male, you’re doing it wrong. The point is the dearth of the recognition of awesome indie women. Get it straight, dammit.

    Monday, April 26, 2010 at 3:32 pm | Permalink
  180. ladybird wrote:

    YES, THIS. THIS THIS THIS. I am a 27-year-old woman, and I sing and play guitar in a band with three men my father’s age (58-60ish) who drive me completely insane for a thousand reasons. One of them even said to me a few weeks ago, “You know, usually I don’t like women singers…you’re the only one I like.” What the jesus’ fuck am I supposed to do with that? It is unbelIEVable how much I have to play nice with these old bastards. I’m printing this out and reading it before every rehearsal.

    Monday, April 26, 2010 at 6:14 pm | Permalink
  181. Dorianne wrote:

    I’m late to this post, but oh hell yeah. I just started getting into the music business a couple of years ago. I’m a late-comer, older than most newcomers, so I don’t get pushed around easily. But holy CRAP. Yeah. When I first put my band together, I felt like Eliza Doolittle being instructed by Henry Higgins and Colonel Pickering! I used to date the lead guitarist (the Colonel), until about a month ago. Now I’m fighting to hang onto the band, but luckily, the other 2 guys have female partners who are musicians, and they are very much sticking with me.

    I heard a similar story from a musician in another band recently, about peeing in shared rehearsal space. He said the musicians all peed in empty Corona bottles and lined them up on the stairs. I asked him what the women did. He shrugged and said gruffly, “There weren’t any women there,” and turned away.

    Everywhere I go, I see male bands covering the same old shit. The same shit I can hear on the canned tracks during band breaks. The same music I can hear at the grocery store, to be frank. I never see a male band cover a female artist. A lot of bands that have women singers don’t cover many women artists. I get up there and, when I do covers, that’s mainly what I cover – women artists. I don’t care about genre, as long as I love the song and it’s got integrity. And audiences love it! Probably because they never get to hear those songs from a live band.

    Admittedly, I live in a small city, but I can count on one hand the number of local rock bands (or blues bands, or metal bands, or punk bands, or country bands, or jazz bands…) with women in them. I’m the ONLY woman locally who actually plays an instrument in a gigging band at this moment in time. And I’m often the only woman at electric jams; I’m almost always the only one who brings an instrument, if there are others. That also disturbs me greatly, as I know women musicians exist! Maybe they are all being steered towards bluegrass and folk. I know lots of people have tried to steer me in those directions, because that world is more embracing of women who play. And that’s another thing that pisses me off, while I’m ranting. Women picking up instruments and then being discouraged from rocking out. No effing way is that happening to me!

    Monday, April 26, 2010 at 11:47 pm | Permalink
  182. Nomie wrote:

    From this weekend’s New York Times Magazine (I KNOW, I am an Effete Liberal Snob) on The National:

    “The National sound has a layered, seductive quality that is filled with intimate male feeling and uneasy cinematic portent…”

    I am sure The National is a fine band, but could there be a better summary of Dude Music than “intimate male feeling”? About which I do not give a shit?

    Tuesday, April 27, 2010 at 9:52 am | Permalink
  183. I saw Sleater Kinney open up for Pearl Jam 3 times and they ROCKED. Especially when PJ brought ‘em back out jam out to Fortunate Son together. My face was melted.

    Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 5:30 am | Permalink
  184. Angel Hall wrote:

    I wrote “Is it just me, or is the over-saturation of Indie Rock making the record industry even MORE male-dominated? But don’t worry ladies, if you’ve got the look you can work it” on my facebook profile and I was directed to this link by my friend. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
    As a musician who also doesn’t suck, and who isn’t comparable to Jewel, or Ani Defranco, or Patsy Cline or any of the other standard female songwriters that get used as a template for all “chick music”… I just want to get up on stage just ONCE, and not have to start playing before people start to pay attention. I will sit through some guy’s painful performance where everyone is watching respectfully, and then, when I get up, watch everyone turn away to the bar to get a drink. Why…? BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN. And then I have to “prove myself” onstage. FUCK THAT SHIT!

    Thursday, April 29, 2010 at 10:47 pm | Permalink
  185. Axiomatic wrote:

    I’m incapable of describing music in terms other than “I like it” and “I dislike it” so all this talk of prefix-rock is flying right over my head, so I’ll just say that this has been very useful simply because it’s given me a lot of music to check out.

    I might end up not liking it, but given the sheer volume of suggestions, odds are I’ll find something I will like.

    Saturday, June 12, 2010 at 8:09 am | Permalink
  186. CelloShots wrote:

    Okay, like four months late to the party but two things:

    1. I am assigning this post and its sequel to my students in my Music and Gender class because they are just fucking brilliant (if I have Silvana’s permission? I asked Sady but like an idiot totally forgot to ask you!).

    2. About “that Pearl Jam voice”: there’s a wonderful piece by Suzanne Cusick called “On Musical Performances of Gender and Sex” about Pearl Jam and the Indigo Girls that talks about that voice. Sadly it is not on the internet so I can’t share it here, but it is in the book Audible Traces if anyone wants to find it.

    Okay, three things.

    3. I keep coming back and rereading this post even months later because it is that much awesome.

    Thursday, July 29, 2010 at 11:03 am | Permalink
  187. Warm Ghosts wrote:

    woah, it made me kind of sad that people in the post have said things along the lines of “there’s no girl bands like there were in the 90′s” when there’s ALWAYS been completely amazing female bands for a long long time at any given period, especially right NOW! Lust Cats of the Gutters! Grass Widow! Night of Joy! (to name drop a couple rad bands)

    or that PJ Harvey is the only female to nail the “dark/heavy” thing. WHAT!?

    as a dude, i feel like there’s so much fucking awesome female music happening RIGHT NOW.

    i’d like to leave a link to a great compilation of Female Fronted Punk-Rock from 1977-89 that has so many awesome bands in it:
    http://kangnave.blogspot.com/2010/02/reference-of-female-fronted-punk-rock.html

    Friday, August 6, 2010 at 4:33 am | Permalink

11 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Matthew Yglesias » Endgame on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    [...] gonna go go go: — I don’t really like men’s singing voices and certainly the bulk of my favorite bands have woman [...]

  2. Link(s): Wed, Apr 14th, 10am | Your Revolution (The Blog!) on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    [...] LADYPALOOZA PRESENTS: I Went To Your Con­cert and There Was Nothing Going On, or, A Med­i­ta­tio… [...]

  3. [...] to the music portion of today’s Friday morning post.  Silvana at Tiger Beatdown wrote an epic post that accurately described the issue of male dominance in rock music geekery.  This happens in [...]

  4. The Music Stranger « What If on Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    [...] Music Stranger Inspired by this awesome post (and probably the rest of the series, once I get around to reading them), I have decided to post [...]

  5. “WITH SWEET FEMALE VOCALS” « total trash on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    [...] followed Jess’s link to Tiger Beatdown,, a blog I wasn’t familiar with, and was pleased to see that I’m not the only one who [...]

  6. On women in music, feminism and music « The Love that is Strong on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    [...] wanted to re-post this post from Tiger Beatdown on feminism and music: Ladypalooza. I read it last week and have been stewing ever since.  Silvana writes, Being a feminist who is [...]

  7. Big Fat Deal » Fatism In The Wild on Thursday, May 13, 2010 at 7:55 am

    [...] a throwaway bit, but it pissed me off. The implication that music is for men, and the casual “ha, ha, no fat chicks!” [...]

  8. [...] I read all of these which are about the experience of white, cis, ablebodied women for the most part, and was inspired to do a post featuring vocal diversity among women rockers. .LADYPALOOZA PRESENTS: I Went To Your Concert and There Was Nothing Going On, or, A Meditation on Dud… [...]

  9. links for 2010-06-03 « Embololalia on Thursday, June 3, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    [...] Tiger Beatdown › LADYPALOOZA PRESENTS: I Went To Your Concert and There Was Nothing Going On, or, … I really, truly, believed that I sucked because I was a girl, that I must have some weird thing about me that I could just not understandhow to write songs or to play guitar or to rock out or to sing angry, because of my vagina. Dudes made me believe it. Because all through college, they refused to listen to women making music, refused to listen to women’s opinions about music, and regarded women who were really into music as “cute.” …The number one thing I learned from being in a band and hanging out with a lot of guys who were Very Serious about music is that basically the worst thing that can happen to the music you love is for too many women to like it, or for one woman that you know to like it real hard. Music that is good is not music that women go crazy for. If women go crazy for it, it must suck, because women have terrible taste and like all that chick shit and like shave their legs and stuff but oh my god it’s disgusting when they don’t. (tags: feminism gender men women female.musicians music) [...]

  10. Mastery Is A Feminist Issue « Hysteria! on Sunday, June 6, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    [...] would balk at showing anyone else the secrets of their abilities.  As Silvana pointed out in her Dude Music post at tigerbeatdown, guys are notorious for attempting to convince women that their tiny ladybrains couldn’t [...]

  11. illicit diversions › Finding a new best friend on Saturday, July 10, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    [...] it out until recently. I started reading during Ladypalooza, more specifically, the post about Dude Music. (The rest of the Ladypalooza posts can be found on this archive page and can I just take a moment [...]